dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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gensis
Jan 31, 2007 18:54:34 GMT -5
Post by dan on Jan 31, 2007 18:54:34 GMT -5
Objective reality is that which is perceived by humans. Humans are incapable of being truly objective. Physical reality itself is in question when perception creates the reality we experience. Humans have a damn good handle on many aspects of physical reality—until we turn our attention away from what we’re looking at. Then all bets are off. The next person to walk into the observatory will see a star when the last one saw Mars. Matter is tangible. But the perception of it is as fluid and varied as there are waves in the ocean. I understand what you're saying, but still, if I make the following statement to you it is either true or false, regardless of one's perception: A personal God exists, He created the universe and mankind, and one day everyone will stand before Him to answer for their sins.That is either objectively true or objectively false. [To be precise, "The statement is true" would mean that all claims in the statement hold; "The statement is false" means that at least one of the claims in the statement do not hold. This is necessary to spell out because the statement contains more than one claim!] I never said anything about whether it was verifiable or not, I said that it was either true or not true. The fact that there is a black hole exactly 200 billion light-years away from earth may not be verifiable, but it still has the property of being either true or false. Likewise, even if Christianity isn't verifiable, it is still either true or false.
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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gensis
Feb 1, 2007 10:18:29 GMT -5
Post by GodsAreUs on Feb 1, 2007 10:18:29 GMT -5
A personal God exists, He created the universe and mankind, and one day everyone will stand before Him to answer for their sins.That is either objectively true or objectively false. Sure. But unmitigated objectivity is not possible. You’re not able to communicate via speech or written word with anything other than your own brain or another human’s ears/eyes. That’s where your argument falls apart. You’re assuming there are absolutes in a selectively perceptive pool of recipients. Any assertion could be true or false. The evidence is strong for much of what we perceive in the physical world to be true. But many assertions are neither, because there is not enough evidence to prove otherwise. Again, any assertion could be true or false. The evidence is strong for much of what we perceive in the physical world to be true. But many assertions are neither, because there is not enough evidence to prove otherwise.
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gensis
Feb 1, 2007 15:34:08 GMT -5
Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 1, 2007 15:34:08 GMT -5
Please excuse my lack of explanation
In Ge 15:1-2 I was wrong about. the word of the Lord usually means a prophetic vision. Sorry.
As of now I can't show you Jesus in the Torah (books of law)but in the Book of Isaiah (which is in the Nevi'im, the book of the prophets) it does prophesies the Coming of John and Jesus. Isa 40:1-5 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.(2)Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. (3)The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.(4)Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:(5)And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
In Mt3:3-4 it talks about John who is the voice in the wilderness. "(3)For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (4)And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey."
The words of Isaiah is written in Joh 1:14 referring to Jesus" And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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gensis
Feb 7, 2007 21:24:19 GMT -5
Post by dan on Feb 7, 2007 21:24:19 GMT -5
Here are some possible references to Jesus (the Messiah) in the Torah (first five books of the Bible, the books of Moses):
So the Lord God said to the serpent:... "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Genesis 3:14-15).
I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 12:3).
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people (Genesis 49:10).
A Star shall come out of Jacob; a Scepter shall rise out of Israel, and batter the brow of Moab, and destroy all the sons of tumult. And Edom shall be a possession; Seir also, his enemies, shall be a possession, while Israel does valiantly. Out of Jacob One shall have dominion, and destroy the remains of the city (Numbers 24:17-19).
I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which he speaks in My name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18:17-19).
"Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. For I raise My hand to heaven, and say, `As I live forever, If I whet My glittering sword, and My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, and repay those who hate Me.'"... Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people, and let all the angles of God worship him [found in Septuagint] (Deut. 32:39-43).
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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gensis
Feb 7, 2007 21:32:36 GMT -5
Post by dan on Feb 7, 2007 21:32:36 GMT -5
You’re not able to communicate via speech or written word with anything other than your own brain or another human’s ears/eyes. That’s where your argument falls apart. You’re assuming there are absolutes in a selectively perceptive pool of recipients. Sensory perception of truth is an interesting topic, but none of it changes the fact that each of us must come to grips with the possibility that there is a moral God whom we may face on Judgment Day. The objective truth is, those who reject Christ are either going to hell to be punished for their sins or they are not!
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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gensis
Feb 7, 2007 22:48:49 GMT -5
Post by GodsAreUs on Feb 7, 2007 22:48:49 GMT -5
The objective truth is, those who reject Christ are either going to hell to be punished for their sins or they are not! You put an "or" in there, rendering your assertion bogus. It inserts doubt as to the outcome of what you deem an "objective truth." You can't have it both ways. In fact, you throw in the third caveat of the assertion when inserting the "those who reject Christ" qualifier. That's three potentially different outcomes in an objective truth. It's senseless. It holds no meaning.
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