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Post by Enuffalready on Feb 28, 2005 3:28:12 GMT -5
Enuffalready Do you believe in anything without proof? Um can you give me proof of humans coming from the lines of apes? No I dont blind faith is not in my make up. Secondly a 98% genetic similarity seems better proof than a 2000 year old un-substantiated book. |
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Post by necroshine on Feb 28, 2005 7:01:40 GMT -5
The earth is on a pillar. There are many more but I have already posted them in another thread. So I will not go through the trouble here.
I know you are trying to make everything ok that god does. But there is no reason why god would put someone in almost constant pain just so we can help. That should raise some bells for you. Deep down you know that is wrong. you just don’t want to take that step.
The bible doesn’t say that is why. You are adding to the bible. You can not do that. Let me repeat. The bible does not say why god does not like cains offerings. He just does not. if it was from his heart then it should be fine. If your child come up to you and give you weeds that look like flowers to them would you smack them out of your child’s hand? Or take them as the present that they are?
There were 2 trees. They only took from one. plus they had in effect another god telling them that it was ok to eat from the tree. Being that they didn’t know right or wrong, they were innocent of any wrong doing. that is why we don’t kill children when they kill someone. We are above that.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Mar 1, 2005 23:19:42 GMT -5
Guerrillasaint I would also like to include the fact that you did not. The tree that they were not supposed to eat from was the tree of knoledge. i dont know about you but i dont want to be around the god that wants a bunch of brainless morons around instead of those who can think.
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Post by solidsquid on Mar 2, 2005 0:21:03 GMT -5
all right I checked it out. It is wrong. let me begin. Now I only did a few becasue I don't think that you would want to sit through all the holes I can poke in to everything that person talked about. God's system in the begining was good. He told Adam and Eve that they could eat anything they wanted to eat except that one tree. So they decied to eat off of that tree. Since they disobeyed they had to leave the garden. God didn't tell Cain to murder his brother. He did that all by himself. Cain was also punished for murdering his brother. Now I don't know what happens to animals after they die. Since god hasn't said he was displeased with them then it is possible they went to heaven if they go to heaven. I don't know if they go to heaven or not. Well I am pretty sure I could do that to the rest of those scriptures If you want me to I will. Have a nice day. Your interpretation, okay. Other interpretations disagree with that. Problem being, is, why the need to interpret? Why ambiguity and discontinuity and flat-out inaccuracies for a divinely inspired work? Various inconsistencies - www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtmlHowever, it is counter-productive to argue biblical interpretation when I do not even hold that work as valid. I'll put it this way: over the years I have determined that Christianity is not valid as a model for reality. I place no merit in it, in that aspect. That is, I have determined that there exists no supreme being, the earth is billions of years old, evolution takes place without a doubt and when I die there will be no incoporeal entity "leaving" my body. This not something I suddenly decided or did to "get back" at someone or to be rebellious. It is from questioning, seeking and evaluation of evidence. My analyzation led me to atheism. Now, sitting here and you saying, "God exists and you must accept him and you'll see in your heart he loves you through the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ...etc, etc..." will not do anything but nauseate me. If you wish to get down to the meat of this, let's do that. Pick an aspect of discussion and we'll see what we find out. I'll even suggest some: * Morality * Naturalism vs. Supernaturalism as explanation for nature * The emergence of mankind |
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 3, 2005 0:21:44 GMT -5
Enuffalready
How much do you study evolution? Not trying to be condescending just would like to know if you have been studying this thing for a while.
Ok It makes sense that apes 98% genetic similarity as humans do. We all came from the same planet. Every thing has DNA, and as I would expect you to know that DNA is made up of Adenine, Thynine, Guanine and Cytosine. These four components of DNA are just arranged in different order to make up different animals. So every thing has a 98% genetic similarity. So now the question is who made it all.
Neroshine
This is what it says in my bible.
Genesis 4:3-5
At harvest time Cain brought to the lord a gift of his farm produce, while Abel brought several choice lambs from the best of his flock. The Lord accepted Abel and his offering, but he did not accept Cain and his offering. This made Cain dejected.
See they stressed that Abel brought choice lamb from his best flock. They didn't say what type or what quality of produce Cain brought. So when God didn't accept Cains offering then it could be deduced that it wasn't his best. If it were then it would have been stated.
The serpent in the garden wasn't a god and God told them not to eat but they did anyway.
There were many trees and only one that they couldn't eat from. I would like to know where you go the two trees.
Dragon of Heavon
The tree of knowledge was a test to see if they would God's will or their own. By doing there own will and going against God's Will they sinned and understood what it was. Then when they go kicked out of the Garden of Eden they understood the ramifications of sin.
solidsquid
That is cool you want some questions and I want to ask some questions. How did the universe begin? Nothing is chance and ever thing on this earth came from one starting point tell me what that was. Do you think man is the most superior being on this earth? Do you think we are the only things in the universe? If we aren't then where did all of the other things come from? Were did it all start from. Please excuse me for being redundant.
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Post by solidsquid on Mar 3, 2005 0:54:56 GMT -5
Ok It makes sense that apes 98% genetic similarity as humans do. We all came from the same planet. Every thing has DNA, and as I would expect you to know that DNA is made up of Adenine, Thynine, Guanine and Cytosine. These four components of DNA are just arranged in different order to make up different animals. So every thing has a 98% genetic similarity. So now the question is who made it all. First off, that is EXTREMELY simplistic and the only accurate item is that the DNA acidic bases are what you listed with the exception of Uracil being in RNA and sometimes accidently substituted for Thymine in DNA. Those amino acid bases are only part of DNA, an extremely important part for the coding of proteins but only a part nonetheless. We share a 98% genetic similarity with chimpanzees (specifically Bonobos - which interestingly are known to engage in homosexual acts but that's another area of discusion), 95% counting indels. We DO NOT share the same similarity with everything else, that statement is unequivocally false. For instance we only share 60% similarity with chickens (as found by the chicken genome being sequenced last year). Human and chimp chromosomes side by side:  The universe as we know it began with the "Big Bang" event and the universe has been expanding every since then. Incorrect. Where do you get the idea that everything on earth came from one starting point? There is no reason to think that. In what sense? Of course not, there's planets and stars and black holes, all kinds of stuff. Various places and processes, depends on which things you want to talk about. For example, a supernova is a star that reaches the end of it's "life" and "explodes". Where did all what start from? I assume you wish to discuss cosmology? No problem but I must admit, it isn't my strongest subject. |
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 3, 2005 1:56:19 GMT -5
You replied fast.
Why the big bang? What make it a big bang? What made it bang. Are we the only life in the universe? That has nothing to do with god I just want to see if you believe in aliens. I guess we just differ on the chance thing. Is there more to your belief in man and ape coming from the same branch? Do you believe that our personality is genetic or learned or do you think it is a bit of both? I think it is both.
I was thinking if there was not god then humans would be more like animal. I don’t think we would have such a structured moral system. What is your reason behind morals. To you what is this whole believing in God thing?
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Post by solidsquid on Mar 3, 2005 3:03:41 GMT -5
That's what the evidence points to. It was big and it was a unbelievably fast expansion and our best likeness it to an explosion. When we hear explosions they make a loud bang or boom. Hence the big bang...besides, big boom just doesn't sound as good. Not certain. String theory has an interesting hypothesis of membranes colliding within a multiverse. Don't know, we've barely explored our own solar system and it's a big universe. It is very probable that there is life elsewhere, even in our own solar system. Life outside our planet I believe is likely, little green men in saucers, no. Yep. What do you mean? Both. We are animals, humans belong in the taxonomic kingdom Animalia. Why not? Social rules of behavior. Mythology taken too seriously with a gross misinterpretation of perception from certain neurofunctioning. Also serving as a social adheasive and caters to needs of people to not only congregate in groups but addresses basic fears such as mortality and provides simplistic and convenient explanations for complex questions (just like other mythology). |
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Post by Enuffalready on Mar 3, 2005 3:53:36 GMT -5
Enuffalready How much do you study evolution? Not trying to be condescending just would like to know if you have been studying this thing for a while. Ok It makes sense that apes 98% genetic similarity as humans do. We all came from the same planet. Every thing has DNA, and as I would expect you to know that DNA is made up of Adenine, Thynine, Guanine and Cytosine. These four components of DNA are just arranged in different order to make up different animals. So every thing has a 98% genetic similarity. So now the question is who made it all. While I admit I'm not a scientist, and my studies are limited to a few books and articles. The point I was trying to make is that to me that the type of evidence supplied by scientists is more compelling to me than that of a book that I regard as a fairy tale (no offense). |
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Post by Enuffalready on Mar 3, 2005 3:56:59 GMT -5
First off, that is EXTREMELY simplistic and the only accurate item is that the DNA acidic bases are what you listed with the exception of Uracil being in RNA and sometimes accidently substituted for Thymine in DNA. Those amino acid bases are only part of DNA, an extremely important part for the coding of proteins but only a part nonetheless. Solidsquid, Just wanted to say thanks for doing what I was too lazy to do. I must say your my idol when it comes to research ;D |
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Post by solidsquid on Mar 3, 2005 12:37:13 GMT -5
Solidsquid, Just wanted to say thanks for doing what I was too lazy to do. I must say your my idol when it comes to research ;D Aw shucks, thanks...  |
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Post by necroshine on Mar 3, 2005 18:18:18 GMT -5
see you are using a “newer” bible. Lets go to the kjv. My personal fav. This is what it says. Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. In the king james version it does not say why god has no respect for cain he just does. Common sense should tell you that they are living as one family. (they are the only ones around) why should each person bring a living thing to god? They brought animals and plants. Offer them to god. Nor does it say before that god wanted only animals offered to him. All the bible says is that god had no respect for cain which god should know that this would cause jealousy. I didn’t say he was a god. I said that from the point of view of someone who did not know right from wrong and one voice tells you to not eat and a snake tells you that it is ok to eat then you can see where questions can arise? By all means if a snake came up to you and started talking to you then you would expect it to be a god even if it isn’t. Even man is wise enough not to punish someone that doesn’t know right from wrong. god doesn’t seem to have that ability. God never said to not eat from the tree of life but he did protect it from adam and eve after they bit from the first tree. Here is the verse. genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Why didn’t god protect the other tree from adam and eve. After all they didn’t know right from wrong. but yet he choose to protect this one. there is no good reason behind this. but if you can think of one please share. I do want to hear it. Are we not better off with the knowledge of right and wrong or am I missing something? Would you say that man would be better off knowing or not knowing right from wrong? think about it. if we did something that caused someone else’s death we would not know it. we would never know when we hurt each others feelings. We wouldn’t even know the bad smell was because we crap on the ground. Have you ever thought about not having the ability to know right from wrong? I would not want to live like that. would you? That is just living with no reason to live. I don’t like it at all. I am so glad to see you are asking all the right questions. You seem to have a hold on reason. I hope you are becoming allergic to bullshit. Now what I would highly suggest getting two books. www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553380168/qid=1109890573/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7514587-7220805www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/055380202X/qid=1109890573/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-7514587-7220805two books from Stephen hawking. Easiest to understand of all science books. I think. You might have read them if so, I would ask what do you think about the books? Here is something free www.gutenberg.org/etext/2009its origin of species by Charles Darwin free download. I’m still reading this. I really hadn’t made time to read it to tell the truth. |
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 4, 2005 2:12:38 GMT -5
Hello happy to see you guys replies
I do believe in evolution. Nothing it says goes against my belief in God. God never said that things wouldn't change.
Solidsquid
Hey what do you do for a living? Just wondering if you don’t want to say that is cool with me.
You know it makes sense that Baboons have the same protein make up. Baboons are about the same size as we are. Let take for instance hemoglobin you know what it does but for all of those who don't know it take oxygen around the body (if I am wrong correct me). Both baboons and humans need it so why would God make a new protein. Still it doesn't really matter how close genetically we are to other organisms what set us apart is our cautiousness.
What is a minverse?
If there were no god I wouldn't think some rules would exist. I think what ever you had to do to keep you happy would be worth it. Why not take what you want. Why not hurt that person that irritated you. Everything would be chance so why not take your chances it might turn out good for you.
Neroshine
Well I don't like the King James Version because I don't understand the worlds but I looked at it because that is what you are using.
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
It still doesn't say what quality of offering Cain brought but the fruit of the ground. This must mean that it is some kind of plant.
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
It does say the kind of quality Abel brought. I had to look up some words to see if they helped me with the understanding of this version.
Firstlings means offspring of products held in special regard as being the first of their kind. That to me is a better word than best. Then I looked up fat it had a long definition but I got some interesting things out of it.
fats have the highest calorific value of all classes of food and are an important source of energy for warm blooded animals. It also said that it was the best part of something. This is why God respected Abel's because he still gave him a really good offering. I think if Cain had given God a good offering it would have been stated. There is a lot to be said about what wasn't stated.
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
In this one Cain decides to pout instead of asking why his offering wasn't accepted. Or examining his own offering to see why Abel's was accepted instead of his.
4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
God is saying if you do well won't you be accepted.
Then he says if you don't do well then it is possible to sin but you have to over come it.
This was also a foreshadowing of what Cain was about to do.
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him
Still Cain decided not to listen what God had to say about sin. He didn’t look at himself to see what is wrong with his action, instead he takes it out on his brother and kills him.
God does say not to eat of the tree of Good and Evil This is what my bible says
Genesis 2:15-17: the lord God place the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the Lord God gave him this warning: "you may freely eat any fruit in the garden except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of god and evil. If you eat of its fruit. you will surely die."
King James Version 2:15-17
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. and the lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Why god put the tree in the Garden of Eden is a good question that I also questioned. Then I got and answer. It goes back to free will and choices. How could Adam and Eve use their free will and choose wither they wanted to obey God or do there own thing without a thing not to do? See the tree is an option. He told them not to eat it so now they can either eat or not eat.( That was the question ;D)
I do like knowing the diffrence between good and evil. I do pray that God allows my eyes to be open and see what is good and what is bad for me. I also want to understand why they are not good for me. Still I don't know what it would be like not knowing what good and evil was. I only know the rules of this world as it is now. I would be speculating about what life would be like without the knowledge of Good and Evil. For all I know it could be the most blissful life there is.
I don't know.
I will check out those websites. I don't know about buying the books because I am poorer than I was before. Still I have a library I can go to so I will see if those books are there.
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Post by Enuffalready on Mar 4, 2005 4:45:09 GMT -5
Hello happy to see you guys replies I do believe in evolution. Nothing it says goes against my belief in God. God never said that things wouldn't change. Cool, Glad to see your eyes are open to that. The problem is (and this doesn't apply to you) that many fundamentalists who insist on a literal interpertation of the bible are very anti-evolution and are hurting the advancement of science by trying to keep evolution out of schools. So called "Christian Science" has long disputed the age of the earth, I think that the popular christian theory is that the earth is somewhere around 10,000 years old. While modern science methods have shown the earth to be around 4.56 billion years old. I know this is a moot point for you because you believe in evolution, but its why a lot of us get up in arms about the subject. |
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Post by necroshine on Mar 4, 2005 6:18:03 GMT -5
Your dancing around your own answer.
Think about the old west. People use to kill others for no good reason. They did get something good from it. people use to take what they wanted. Has society grew we seen that you can not do that. that is why we have rules in place.
I would love nothing more than to go up to this one person at work and knock his head from his shoulders. But we live in a place that looks down on that. and we should look down on that kind of action. But you don’t need a god to tell you that this stuff is bad do you?
Monkeys have consciousness so does my cats out side. I have no question about it. they know they are alive and they know when its life is in danger. You know the one gorilla that knows sign language? Its knows what a mirror is and knows that she is in the mirror. Dolphins don’t even show that kind of intelligence. I don’t think that gap it there at all. we are not the only ones with consciousness. But that is what I believe.
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