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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Sept 12, 2005 10:03:53 GMT -5
Hello all I came across a document written by Pope Pius the 12th and I find the point made on number nine of his paper to be very interesting. Do any of you agree (especialy b33).
9. Now Catholic theologians and philosophers, whose grave duty it is to defend natural and supernatural truth and instill it in the hearts of men, cannot afford to ignore or neglect these more or less erroneous opinions. Rather they must come to understand these same theories well, both because diseases are not properly treated unless they are rightly diagnosed, and because sometimes even in these false theories a certain amount of truth is contained, and, finally because these theories provoke more subtle discussion and evaluation of philosophical and theological truths. (HUMANI GENERIS /Encyclical of pope Pius 12th, August 12th 1950)
Of course this point could be put to any side of any argument, Say if I were a theist, Wouldnt it be my obligation to fully understand the argument of an atheist before I even began to debate the topic?
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Post by vertigo on Sept 12, 2005 10:34:41 GMT -5
A theist can not understand, they shun the method of understanding. Religion and understanding don't go together. All the theist understands is "what I decide is true is true" or "the priest knows best".
Don't even talk to them about understanding.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Sept 12, 2005 11:48:02 GMT -5
Well it is fine and dandy to go ahead and condemn them, but try if you will to understand why they think as they do and maybe you can change their perspective if not the entirety of the their thought process.
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Post by vertigo on Sept 12, 2005 12:40:47 GMT -5
I understand precisely why they think like they do, but there's nothing I can do to change their thought process. There's a point a theist needs to get to, a tipping point, and once they are there it's only a matter of time before they ditch religion entirely. We can help them then by answering their questions.
However, before they reach that point, there is nothing you or I can do. Trying to talk them out of it doesn't work. These forums are the proof of that.
And once they've reached that tipping point, they will seek us out by themselves; they will ask the questions. At that point it would not be accurate to call them theists because they have already started to think for themselves.
You can't make the horse drink, believe me, and trying is futile. When the horse comes to you for water, then you can help, not before.
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The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Sept 15, 2005 17:57:25 GMT -5
I agree with vertigo, until people come to you for help they will never listen.
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The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Sept 19, 2005 20:40:59 GMT -5
It is still fun to mess with them though. hehe
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bare
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 47
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Post by bare on Mar 3, 2006 10:11:17 GMT -5
you all miss the most important point of this writing! The epitome of the disease of religion!
9. Now Catholic theologians and philosophers, whose grave duty it is to defend natural and supernatural truth and instill it in the hearts of men
He doesnt want the layman/woman to be reading and inquiring into these thoughts, but the ones trained and defenders in the accepted teachings (of pope pius). The common man/woman is not supposed to think about such things and take the propagandists word for it.
fore as Helen Keller once said "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
especially for the religious leaders who depend on human nature (as stated above) for their livelihood
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Post by vertigo on Mar 3, 2006 14:56:23 GMT -5
... says the man who (presumably) reads the Watchtower's publications.
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bare
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 47
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Post by bare on Mar 5, 2006 11:41:29 GMT -5
LOL
now that was a bitter low blow of no consequence, seeing as im more closely associated with athiests than any other foolish beliefs
snaps at my ankles from a toothless dog do not hurt
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Post by vertigo on Mar 5, 2006 23:38:24 GMT -5
I was checking...
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Mar 14, 2006 21:46:32 GMT -5
If you two are quite done trying to figure out who can be the biger ass whole to the other, can we get on with the qestion of the matter. How do you fight with an orginization that is its self constantly questioning? Also how do you work against 2000 years of doctrine and teaching. (in the case of Jewdiasm its more like (4000)
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Post by vertigo on Mar 14, 2006 21:55:16 GMT -5
You learn more about the problem and what its supports are.
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bare
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 47
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Post by bare on Mar 15, 2006 8:32:35 GMT -5
you sit them out
just think about it every religion that has ever existed has gone the way of the dodo! even early judaism is not what it used to be, i.e. no more sacrifices and such. which makes it into a whole different religion in practice.
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cantbeatbass
Maverick's Chew Toy
Friedrich von Schiller said it best
Posts: 8
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Post by cantbeatbass on Jun 20, 2006 0:56:51 GMT -5
I think the point made by the pope has merit. To contradict a theory you have to understand it. Either atheistic or theists should understand the opposing argument. To disprove an argument if there is not counterproof, you have to show that the argument itself is flawed; that can't be done without first understanding the argument.
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Post by solidsquid on Jun 20, 2006 8:11:28 GMT -5
Indeed. I found one of the major reasons many people reject evolutionary theory is simpy because they don't understand it. It has bee substituted by some odd distortion the creationist camp feeds people that they call evolutionary theory...like Ann Coulter's fascist ass.
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