F1LT3R
Broken-in Plebe
Boo!
Posts: 74
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Post by F1LT3R on Jan 7, 2005 12:19:56 GMT -5
Mathematics is not a man-made principle. Mathmematics ir primarily based upon the digital nature of existence. So even if humans did not exist... mathematics would still exist.
For example: If humans did not exist... would trees still exist? If you say "YES" then I would ask you, how many leaves would there be on such-and-such a tree?
Some mathematic methods may not exist without humans. But math itself is the stuff of existence. If you don't exist, 0 still exists.
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Anarchat
Seasoned Citizen
School's design is two-fold: to polish the exceptionally dull and to dull the exceptionally bright.
Posts: 107
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Post by Anarchat on Jan 7, 2005 16:31:17 GMT -5
Mathematics is not a man-made principle. Mathmematics ir primarily based upon the digital nature of existence. So even if humans did not exist... mathematics would still exist. For example: If humans did not exist... would trees still exist? If you say "YES" then I would ask you, how many leaves would there be on such-and-such a tree? Some mathematic methods may not exist without humans. But math itself is the stuff of existence. If you don't exist, 0 still exists. *grimaces* This, my friend, is dangerous ground. You present as matter-of-fact that which mathematicians can't seem to agree on. I'm confused really, and that is because of your ambiguous language. First, you state that "mathematics is not a man-made principle". What is a "man-made principle"? How do we identify man-made principles? How did you determine that mathematics isn't a man-made principle? More importantly, however, how do we differentiate between a man-made principle and a principle that isn't man-made? You also state that "Mathmematics ir(sic) primarily based upon the digital nature of existence.." What is the meaning of your statement? What is meant by "existence"? And what about the "digital nature"? By this do you mean binary? The best I can divine is that you refer to the law of the excluded middle in 2-valued logic that states there is no third alternative to truth or falsehood. What, however, makes you think that "existence" follows 2-valued logic? Why not 3-valued logic? And if I'm completely off base here, still, where is your evidence? Your argument? Before you can ascertain that mathematics would exist without humans you have to be sure of what mathematics is. This is no simple task. Just examine the debates between the proponents of Formalism, Platonism, and Logicism. It would be provident for you to conduct some research on the topic. It's more complicated than you make it out to be, F1LT3R.
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F1LT3R
Broken-in Plebe
Boo!
Posts: 74
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Post by F1LT3R on Jan 7, 2005 21:01:26 GMT -5
Right, I don't disagree with what you're saying really.
I'm just pointing out that without mankind, math still exists. Life is continually adding and subtracting.
For example: there's a mathmatical process man calls bifurication. You can programme your computer to recreate it. But the same process occurs in natural living organisms and population growth. My point being... although we represent the process using numbers and graphs, the process still functions according to the same rules. Simply put... reducing a natural process to an equasion dosnt mean that math has been added or dreamed up. I think it means the math has been discovered.
Regarding existence... yes you did understand what I was getting at as far as I can tell. True or false. Existence is a mathematical concept.
If you have two trees, you have two trees. It dosn't matter if you are there to witness them or not. There are still two. And those two trees have a value in the eco-system, which is mathmatics. Whether you are there to witness it or not.
What about atoms? They have different numbers of protons and electrons. And each gold atom is the same as each other gold atom. Same number of electrons and protons. The math in nature is represented by matter. Add some electrons and get a different atom. The table of elements is nature's abbacus.
Anyway, it's not something I know much about. So I'm not saying I'm right. That's just what I believe. If you can put something else forward that is reasonable, I'm willing to listen.
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Anarchat
Seasoned Citizen
School's design is two-fold: to polish the exceptionally dull and to dull the exceptionally bright.
Posts: 107
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Post by Anarchat on Jan 8, 2005 10:14:10 GMT -5
For example: there's a mathmatical process man calls bifurication. You can programme your computer to recreate it. But the same process occurs in natural living organisms and population growth. What tends to be the case is that we use mathematics to approximate the physical phenomena we observe. You appear to regard the phenomenon and the mathematical approximation as the same thing and use that as proof that mathematics exists independently from human intellect. What makes you think that is the case?
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Post by pieisgood on Jan 8, 2005 11:56:13 GMT -5
Mathematics is not a man-made principle. Mathmematics ir primarily based upon the digital nature of existence. So even if humans did not exist... mathematics would still exist. For example: If humans did not exist... would trees still exist? If you say "YES" then I would ask you, how many leaves would there be on such-and-such a tree? Some mathematic methods may not exist without humans. But math itself is the stuff of existence. If you don't exist, 0 still exists. The tree example doesn't quite work. Do it again, but substitute "thought" for "math". If thought didn't exist, trees would still exist. If I asked you "how many leaves are on that tree?" you can't answer, because you would have to think about it. Although you cannot express the answer to me, there still is an answer.
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