A child asks about death

[dragonfly]

This is a true story.It does not matter who's story it is. It is the story of millions.(I am posting it in this section because it is true and I wanted people to feel the need that can inspire belief...or slam the door on it!)

Imagine a child so beautiful that you smiled with astonishment and pleasure just to see him. Imagine seeing a shadow fall across his face like a water mark on a piece of paper...a shadow that sends a chill through your entire being....the shadow of death. You can not believe what your own eyes tell you ...although your heart knows. Like the water mark ,you can only see it if the light is right. So you don't look too closely. Instead you smell the back of his neck which is like caramels, warm milk, dry grass and butter cookies and you feel that everything must be all right. BUT it isn't.

The child knows. He senses his own fragility. He says "Mama will I die?" You say nothing. You can not move a single muscle. the pain that grips you in its vice is so complete and heavy. He is only four. You command yourself to smile in a warm and reassuring way but your face has become a well of stillness that he drowns in....and so without saying him a single word you have given him his answer "yes" .

He falters. He reaches out for you although already he is slipping away."Don't ever leave me" he whispers.You nod helplessly unable to explain that he is the one who is going out of reach.

"What will happen...where will I go when I die?"
What do I say? I long for blind faith to wrap us up in like a warm soft blanket...safe.He senses my insecurity and begins to cry.
"Will I be safe?...can I have my teddy?...will you still be my mama ?....will it be dark? (he is sooo scared of the dark)."

I am still silent with grief. Petrified that if I move a single eyelash I will weep forever. He is my one great love...I am his. How can we be torn apart and plunged into the abyss of the unknown.My job as a mother is to love him and care for him forever. I have failed him...but my destiny was to fail him.Time would have over taken us ...if not now then later.Either way death would prise us apart. Life is cruel...crueler than death.

This is HELL.

He weeps louder his soft baby arms about my neck.
"Papa says I will be a star......(his lips tremble with terror)...I do not want to be a star....they are so far away...from you! I can not ride my bike if I am a star!"....."mama I will get lost without you...let me stay here with you!"
I find words."you will not be a star...you will always be my baby!" He gives me a small smile.

How can I cover him with cold ,damp ,dark earth? Irrationally I am filled with terror that he will be cold,choked,scared....I am afraid of the rain.....I have always given him bright red wellies and a red umbrella. How can I commit him to the flames when he is so scared of fire...every option fills me with obscene horror. I can not comprehend the finality of death...the bones and stones of it.

Nana gives him a book called "Cats Heaven"...inside is a picture of a God...a kindly grandfather sitting on a bed with a rainbow quilt and hundred cats."I love cats!" he says. He points to the bed "See mama...I will wait for you here!" He smiles."Now you will know where to find me!"..."Do you think God will read me a story?"

I snatch wildly at every glimmer of hope,of faith.My childs faith in me demands it. I want it desperately. And so you see theism can be a desperate plunge of hope, a cry in the dark for light, a longing for eternal love....a parents reach for the child they have always touched and held as it needed..to fix the hurt...to be there..Always.This need can spring from many things.We have a fatal flaw that condems us to see our mortality and fear it.....

You must understand that could I have complete faith that there was nothing I would also me comforted...it is the horror of sending my child alone on an unknown journey that haunts me for I have always held his hand.

This is just one reason people want to believe.#nosmileys#nosmileys

[ck]

thats a very sad story if you ask me but that is all i have to say about it.

[dragonfly]

Hey ck ,thats o.k! I did not expect people to respond to this one.Mostly because its an awkward and painful topic and maybe people would be more than usually cautious because the death of children is the last taboo......How ever emotive I appear to be though, I wish to allow others their feelings.So if someone really does want to comment even in a negative way I hope they feel able to....I may then dissagree or accept it.Thats part of why this board is great.The openess of communication!

Maybe it was unfair of me to post it....I thought about not but if you are going to take a stance of non belief than the perspective of belief is essential. How would anyone really understand the concept of light ,without dark or soft without hard?

[tamara]

I think one of the clear advantages of theism is one's ability to provide and get comfort in these awful situations. What does atheism provide? Telling this mom, this child, "life sometimes sucks" just does not cut it.

Thank you, dragonfly, for posting it. Many atheists avoid looking at this issue, and resent it when it comes up from a theist. I don't mean to gloat here... life is difficult enough for anyone. It's just since we are talking about reasons for one side or another...

[Maverick]

dragonfly, it wasn't unfair to post that (I actually think it would be unfair not to post it). The way you wrote the above story was very touching, dragonfly. Thanks for posting it.

I agree that theism does offer an answer to the question of what happens when we die. That single question alone inspires belief for many people. Atheism itself doesn't have an answer (since it isn't a doctrine of beliefs) but that doesn't mean atheists haven't come up with answers to this question.

Eastern religions, for example, don't necessarily believe in a god in the way Western religions do. They tend to think of god more in terms of "the universe" - something that is eternal but not personal or involved with us. In that sense, some Eastern religions are atheistic.

Perhaps the key to explaining death to children is to meet them on their own level by telling them what death is without frightening them. If Eastern religions, such as Buddhism, are able to offer comfort to their children by explaining death without a god, I don't think it's impossible to do the same here in the Western world.

I think it's important to realize that, though we might want something to be true, that doesn't mean what we want is actually true. In a world that is mostly theistic, atheism does somehow force us to look at the world for what it is rather than what we wish it would be.

However, for some people, a godless universe is too frightening or too cold. If those people want to believe in their god for comfort, that's fine with me. All I ask is that the same people don't try to force their beliefs on me or other non-believers.

[tamara]

Mav, would it not be more correct to say that the eastern religions are pantheistic, seeing God as an intelligent force permeating the universe, sort of like Spinoza and Einstein did?

I thought that the atheist answer to what happens after death is... nothingness! No?

I think it's important to realize that, though we might want something to be true, that doesn't mean what we want is actually true. In a world that is mostly theistic, atheism does somehow force us to look at the world for what it is rather than what we wish it would be.

First of all, there is a theory that the immaterial (mind) can affect material reality. It has been demonstrated that for example just having a certain intention will fire certain brain neurons, the same brain neurons that will fire when an action is being taken. So maybe what we believe will somehow have an effect on what is.

But apart from that speculation, it is entirely and eminently reasonable to choose the option out of two which is more hopeful and comforting, IF nobody really knows one way or another, and both options are embedded in uncertainty.

To make the claim that atheism shows the world as it is, while theism is wishful thinking, is going out on a huge limb. The only reason this has worked persuasively in the past is that science has been coopted by materialism and atheism. This is starting to change.

[ck]

yes the answer to waht happens aftr death is nothing.. u just cease to exist is what i thought atheist believe and if that is not true i am not a atheist.... cause i believe u end forever when u die

[Maverick]

tamara

Mav, would it not be more correct to say that the eastern religions are pantheistic, seeing God as an intelligent force permeating the universe, sort of like Spinoza and Einstein did?

Perhaps such a description would better identify the central tenets of most Eastern religions. However, this does not mean that many Eastern religions are not atheistic. Keep in mind that atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. From my understanding, pantheism is belief that one should revere and honour the universe in its awe. Atheists do not deny the existence of the universe, just the existence of a deity.

In my (admittedly limited) research on pantheism online, I found the following description of pantheism:

Natural Pantheism webpage

It (pantheism) is neither theism nor atheism, but transcends both. Its central tenet is that the universe is the ultimate reality, the ultimate object of reverence, while nature is a sacred part of the totality of which every one of us, in life or in death, is an inseparable part.

By the description I quoted, pantheism can be compatible with atheism or theism depending on whether you believe a deity was involved or not. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of pantheism, in which case I'd encourage you to tell me how you view pantheism.

tamara

I thought that the atheist answer to what happens after death is... nothingness! No?

ck

yes the answer to waht happens aftr death is nothing.. u just cease to exist is what i thought atheist believe and if that is not true i am not a atheist.... cause i believe u end forever when u die

There is no single atheist answer to these questions. Atheism is not a doctrine with a list of beliefs about the universe, our lives, death, etc. Individual atheists must come to their own conclusions about these things because atheism itself does not offer an answer to this question. Some atheists don't believe anything happens after death. Some may believe in things like reincarnation and karma, some may just not know or care.

tamara

First of all, there is a theory that the immaterial (mind) can affect material reality. It has been demonstrated that for example just having a certain intention will fire certain brain neurons, the same brain neurons that will fire when an action is being taken. So maybe what we believe will somehow have an effect on what is.

Are you trying to tell me that, if human beings have a belief in God that such a belief can affect whether or not one exists? Sounds to me like this argument, at best, would enable human beings to create God out of their belief systems.

tamara

But apart from that speculation, it is entirely and eminently reasonable to choose the option out of two which is more hopeful and comforting, IF nobody really knows one way or another, and both options are embedded in uncertainty.

tamara, you seem to be operating under the assumption that atheism is a belief opposed to theism (therefore a second option). But this isn't the case. Atheism is a nuetral position one arrives at after critically examining the option of belief and deciding that it is unsupported.

tamara

To make the claim that atheism shows the world as it is, while theism is wishful thinking, is going out on a huge limb.

Why?

[tamara]

As I understand pantheism, it is a belief that God and universe are one and the same. But I have not studied it at length, and maybe there is natural pantheism that does not think of the divine at all, but if this is so, then why call it panTHEISM (all-is-god)?!

If some atheists believe in reincarnation and karma, where do they think these come from? Hmm... is there such a thing as non-materialistic atheism?

I know you atheists always stress that atheism is only one small belief or lack of, but in practice, I think, it encompasses more than that. Atheism is usually in practice a stance, it seems to me, on those several basic metaphysical questions. God, soul, death, meaning. Or should I instead call it secularism or materialism?

I think I went a little too far on the limb with my idealism. You are right... we cannot make God be true by wishing.

tamara, you seem to be operating under the assumption that atheism is a belief opposed to theism (therefore a second option). But this isn't the case. Atheism is a nuetral position one arrives at after critically examining the option of belief and deciding that it is unsupported.

Of course atheism is a belief. It is a belief there is not enough evidence for God. (For strong atheists, it is more than that, but I won't dwell on it.)

I think atheists nowadays stress the "neutrality" of their position thinking it will somehow protect them from argument. It does not.

Look... there are several basic questions, metaphysical questions, that most humans consider at one time or another. One of them is, does God exist? One side says yes, there seems evidence enough for me, one side says no, or not likely because evidence is lacking. And each human's person answer to this is part of their belief system, and their answer influences their other beliefs. That's why people assume, not unreasonably, that atheism is intimately linked to secularism and scientific materialism. I don't really care so much what we call it as long as we can have common language so we can get on with talking about stuff instead of talking about definitions.

To make the claim that atheism shows the world as it is, while theism is wishful thinking, is going out on a huge limb.
Why?

Because we humans, limited as we are, do not have access to ultimate reality. All we have is models of it. Some models work better than others, but even that does not guarantee truth. Some things we have a decent sense of. Others, we are guessing. Deep metaphysical questions fall in this category. NOBODY KNOWS! For atheists to posture as tho you guys are in the possession of truth is pure hubris!

[pieisgood]

Nice story, Dragonfly.

To echo everyone else: to have a child believe in theism is fine, that's what's comforting.
It may be a lie, it may not be a lie. EVen if you don't believe in it yourself, do you believe in Santa Clause? Do you teach your child about Santa Clause? 4 is a young age to be coping with death, that's a large, important, and tough issue. Why not give them that, then once they're old enough to understand better then give them a choice?

I honestly do not understand this topic as well as everyone else as I am a child and not a parent, but those are my thoughts.

-pie

[nonny]

It is simple you tell the child what all the different cultures believe happens, and then have them decide for them self what really happens. Then you are not lieing or making them sad over something they don't really need to know about yet. Just my opinion.

[Griffey]

tamara said:

If some atheists believe in reincarnation and karma, where do they think these come from? Hmm... is there such a thing as non-materialistic atheism?

In regard to this question, perhaps I can shed some light, as I myself do believe in reincarnation (although not in the same way as many religions do). I personally believe that a person's life and experiences are just one perspective, and when that path ends, your perspective simply changes. I don't think your "soul" or whatever lives on, or somehow determines its new path because of your past lives. My thought is, why are you you and not someone else? Maybe you are, you just don't have that perspective yet. I'm not sure if that was a good enough explaination of this, but the idea is rather abstract in my mind, and I don't know how to describe it effectively.

Anyhow, I don't really think this comes from anything. I just think that if that really is how things work, that it just is. Then again, that is just my opinion; you'd have to talk to other atheists with reincarnation or beliefs somewhere along that line to get a wider view.

Going back to the original topic, I don't really see anything wrong with providing the child with some comforting afterlife to believe in, especially if they are of a young age. I don't see it as any different than characters like Santa Claus; they serve their purpose while appropriate, and then at a certain point the child can figure out for themselves what to believe. As long as you give the kid options, including the option not to believe, I think that "giving them" an afterlife belief might actually be beneficial to their mental and emotional well-being. Too bad we can't test it without risking inflicting trauma on impressionable young kids...psychology would be much more interesting if you could test more stuff out...but I couldn't bring myself to hurt kids anyhow.

Of course, how long you'd want them to believe this could be an issue. Would you "break it to them" when they were old enough to deal with it? Let them continue with their beliefs? I guess it depends on the parent's beliefs and values.

[zoul]

Indeed this is very tragic, when a child dies. No parent wants to outlive their child, it just dose not seem right. The grief and loss must be immense. The sense that life holds no justice. Innocence being taken.

Consolation:
For people who have a god, there is some kind of consolation for them. People can conceive things even being able to conceive the inconceivable, and sure the concept of this ever lasting life brings about it’s own consolation. But still doesn’t make it true.
The consolation might make the grieving process move along faster. Atheists tend to grieve longer because of the lack of the consolation factor.

What harm can it do?
Not much you might think. Telling a child that when someone or something dies they go to heaven. Children are not critical thinkers and will readily accept what an adult tells them. Pets and animals die, normally they have a shorter life expectancy than humans. So hamster’s goldfish cat’s dogs tend to die. The life has gone, the child weeps “what did Hammy/Goldie ever do wrong?” they wail, “Why did he/she die” truth is it’s natural and unavoidable.
The harm comes from people who try to justify their own heaven and deny others theirs. Say a Christian will say the only way to get to heaven is to accept Jesus, while Muslims say it’s Allah that should be accepted. And so on and so forth. Thus you have one group excluding another or denying another group of people from this idea of heaven.

The great truth.
Although death and dying are unavoidable, as animals our job is to reproduce passing on our genetic information, teaching our offspring to survive in the environment as best we can, and then make room for their offspring.
Our bodies our atoms are reabsorbed by the planet. As the body breaks down, minerals water and the atoms we are made from nourish other plants and animals which in turn feed the web of life. Recycling if you like. And therefore immortal.

[dragonfly]

Firstly pieisgood you underestimate yourself....you gave a very insightful and sensitive answer that was much appreciated .

Griffey your ideas on reincarnation are extremely interesting!. I have found that belief in an afterlife in children who are faced with death incredibly comforting and of huge benefit emotionally and psychologically and more interesting physically.Your intuition on this topic is accurate.However it is important that all adults agree to present the same view to the child.....any conflicting views cause enormous stress and often fear. It helps if the adults think of their beliefs as a network of strings in a hammock in which the dying child is supported ...pull at one of those strings and it may unravel and the child fall through and be hurt.

Your point is valid ck but difficult for a small child (indeed many adults) to handle especially when death is so close.A parent primarily just wants to protect their child at this time.....even if it means lying ......Lets face it socially we lie all the time...its almost essential.Think about the times you have said "No I'm not tired" when a friend asks for help but you really want to SLEEP!or "Wow I really love that!"When great Aunt Alice gives you a lime ,green scarf with orange stripes that she knitted herself. How many times do we feel terrible but say "I'm fine" when asked. But really I agree with Tamara atheist or theist we just don't know so why not give comfort,security and happiness in the short time you have to be alive together?

Nonbeliever your idea is great but a child aged 4 just wants infacts needs one story.

Maverick your words were sensitive and interesting.I am always appreciative of your views.

Tamara...thanks! Incidently I agree you can not make God true by wishing however when I was 12 I wrote a poem called "Forgotten Gods Grow Hungry" and it was about how without the mental and spiritual energy provided by focused belief old gods had lost their power and the ability to manipulate mankind.Just a poem but sometimes I do wonder about the power of prayer and belief.

Incidently the joy in this particular instance that grew inside the child ,the peace and lack of fear that took the place of grief and terror when this child was given a faith,a hope ,a belief system ,a vision of light instead of darkness or of nothing was the most beautiful thing I have seen.....despite my own pain #nosmileys

[pieisgood]

1st-thanks dragonfly

2nd- I completely agree. You need a global system, like, say, Santa Clause. As long as you eventually give them their options when they are ready for them, it works out great. Like I said, it's a tough issue and some children can't deal with it, so don't make them. Let God work his magic, then see if he exists.

-pie