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Post by Yaw on Apr 18, 2004 14:04:30 GMT -5
Welcome, livinitup.
Yaw
livinitup
I think you misunderstood my point here. It wasn't about whether or not the bible is literally true. From the stories of King David on, the bible is closer to historical fiction than pure fiction -- that is, about people and places that existed, but with some exaggeration. Nevertheless, the bible is intended as a work of mythology, not as a work of history.
I don't want you to think that this is disparaging the bible. On the contrary, I think myth is necessary. It provides a basis for societal norms and morals. Nor is myth limited to the religious realm. (There is, for example, an American mythology. That's why you think of George Washington as an honest man who wouldn't lie about chopping down a cherry tree, instead of what he really was -- a butcher who murdered Native American women and children while the men were away.) Myth is an organizing force that can give lives and societies meaning. I think you will find that this is very much what those religions that refer to the bible are trying to use it for. In this sense, whether or not the contents are historically accurate is not particularly relevant. What matters is the effect of the stories on society, when looked at from a mythical standpoint.
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livinitup
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Post by livinitup on Apr 18, 2004 14:10:21 GMT -5
Nonbeliever, I am wondering what part of the crusifiction is untrue to you? Also who is your father...we could argue all day "well my daddy said ..." however i would like something to back up the claim your dad is a historian... like i said just wondering.
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livinitup
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Post by livinitup on Apr 18, 2004 14:11:47 GMT -5
Thanks for clearing that up YAW, your right i misunderstood you
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Post by nonny on Apr 18, 2004 14:21:35 GMT -5
Yes my dad is a historian, not a famous one by any means just a historian. I'll answer the rest of your question later to day.
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livinitup
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Post by livinitup on Apr 18, 2004 14:31:46 GMT -5
Yes my dad is a historian, not a famous one by any means just a historian. Right but does he work for a university or anything as such, that is what im getting at just some credibility. I look forward to seeing what you dislike about the crusifiction
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Post by nonny on Apr 18, 2004 15:34:42 GMT -5
No he is curently retired.
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Post by pieisgood on Apr 18, 2004 22:00:49 GMT -5
That's awesome, nonny. I've always wished there was a household authority I could turn to on this kind of thing in general. Sadly, I haven't recieved a response in a long time (the last one was about at the new years) the debate is pretty much over. I think she had alot of flaws in her logic. She reverted quite often to the ol' "faith faith faith". Well, I can now proudly say I have supressed the "faith" argument ;D I agree with Yaw on the Bible; it was intended to be myth.
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Post by BaalShemRa on Apr 18, 2004 22:18:37 GMT -5
Livinitup,
"Quote:tamara
Besides, the bible says that children are not to be punished for their father's sins. It's somewhere in the prophets. Good quote to use.
That is quite wrong, infact it says you can be punished for up to, i think, 4 generations after ward. I dont have time to find the verse now but i will later on."
Then the Bible just contradicts itself, oy gevalt, es klapt mir im kopf!
"Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness, and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (NASB) Ezek. 18:19-20
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (NASB) Exodus 20:5-6
Yaw,
"interpretable in many different ways", yeah, you can make them say pretty much anything you want, so that any presumed wisdom you gain from it is nothing but a reflection of what you felt/thought before reading it. Might as well read horoscopes.
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livinitup
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 1:09:07 GMT -5
And here comes Baal to save the day *trumpits sound* "Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness, and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (NASB) Ezek. 18:19-20 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (NASB) Exodus 20:5-6 These are two totally seperate things, thanks for finding my verse btw, Exodus talks about serving other Gods, or Worshiping other things. For instance money. Where as Ezek. is discussing disobediance to God, like stealing for instance. Which is two totally seperate things. So no the Bible is not contradiciting itself. BTW im glad you speak German asino
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livinitup
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 1:12:58 GMT -5
No he is curently retired. Well wonderful, so then where did he work?
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Post by BaalShemRa on Apr 19, 2004 8:21:49 GMT -5
Livinitup,
What the person is being punished for is not germane to the discussion. What we are discussing is whether or not someone can be punished for the crimes of his father or not.
One quote says that it is possible to punish the son for the father's fault, another one says it isn't.
It's Yiddish.
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livinitup
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 9:08:50 GMT -5
No what is going on in the verses is two seperate ideas, Yes one does say that the children should not be punished the other says it does. However, the question is "Punished for What?" The reasons for them being punished are two seperate things. Its like me writing a book and saying if the kids eat their veggies they get ice cream, if they dont eat their veggies then they dont get ice cream. I just contradicted myself according to your thought process.
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