zoul
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 35
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Post by zoul on Jul 3, 2006 7:45:03 GMT -5
Oh right ok.. So when we do this praying thing dose it matter wich god we are like praying to So if we take gurrilasaints concept of praying. We choose a god deity or something first right. Now which one to choose ? so many so little time. See pascal didn't concider all the concepts of gods, he just went for the local ones that he was indocterined into. So who should i pray to ?? the sun god the moon god Baal gnaesh the invisable pink unicorn Yes the IPU i think. So once i prayed to the IPU all i have to do is wait for something to happen and hey presto the IPU is real becouse you are gonna mistake anything as a sign if your waiting for one. So maybe we should all pray to the great mermaid to give us a sign or should we be dancing around a fire nakid Rituals stress possions group affiliation bring about an endorthine rush. Endomorthines and and natural drugs that are released by our brains encourage a natural high. The oppiate of the masses. And what are all these people praying for ? I think they whant a continued existance that is just not feesable. web.uccs.edu/kgeddes/introduction.htmFear based ??
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jul 4, 2006 19:07:52 GMT -5
The dream can be used as a tool to communicate to you when ever God feels like it. Not all dreams are him talking to you though. He is a God and can choose when, where and how he is going to talk to you. Not unlike people today who have many different forms of communication. To me it seems like you are reaching with your argument. Either you just don't want to listen or ... Still look at it this way is ever phone call that you receive from the same person? If not then is ever piece of mail that you receive from the same person? If not is every email you receive from the same person? Do you get my point? God can use your dream as a from of communication, then he can use someone down the street, then he can use the TV. Still not everything that runs across the TV is him, it isn't him ever time someone talks to you, and not every dream is him talking to you. It seems to me that if you can refute him ever talking to you then you can still be a victim of his unwillingness to talk to you. Which isn't true. Why don't you let go of the lie and start living?
Oh will God didn't have a father. So I guess he is the definition of the word bastard-Born of unwed parents. Still he didn't go to hell. And where in the Bible did you see this? If you can't find it then I think you should let that idea go. Are you making these things up or is someone giving you bad information? It seems to me that you have more rule that will send you to hell then God does.
God loves us all, still we have to come to terms with what kind of life we are living.We have had this conversation before, but I don't mind repeating myself. You know it is like a mother who has a drug addict for a child she doesn't love him less and watching him kill himself hurt. Now, if she is wise she isn't going to let him in the house until he realizes he has a problem and does something to get better. Then she will help him in any way she can to get him clean again. So this is the same way God deals with all of us. He still loves us but he isn't going to help us be wrong. When we realize that our lives are worthless without him then he will help us out or in other words save us. Also God is living for us so in turn he expects us to live for him. He laid down his life for us so why can't we do the same? Look at it this way, we were made for him and we can't truly live up to our potential if we are doing everything else but living for him. Man this life we are living right now is just a brief point in an eternal life so letting your pride dictate how you will spend the rest of eternity is not a good idea.
Zoul I only pray to the one true God who is the trinity who is the I Am the alpha and the omega, God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, He is the only one who has power to save your life. Some call him Yahweh, some call him Emmanuel, some call him Jehovah-Jireh and that is just the tip of the iceberg. We clear?
I don't do any rituals like what you have explained.
To be honest I used to be afraid of living forever and I used to be afraid of dieing so you can't say that I believe for these reasons. It is had for me to even think beyond my own life on this earth. After this point I think that life will be so drastically different that it won't even resemble what we are doing right now. Hopefully as I grow in Christ i will understand the next more.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 5, 2006 5:49:10 GMT -5
I am living without god very well. A lot better than I did with him. Plus I’m not the one stretching an argument here. Like I said before you pick and choose what you want to see god in. god can be in anything to you. I just don’t see it like that anymore. I use to look at the world like you do, but not now. I just can not do it.
When I talked about bastards not getting into heaven I said nothing about jesus. I don’t even want to bring jesus in to this part. I am talking about all the children that are bastards that will not get into heaven, if you have to have a passage from the bible and clearly you can not look one up for yourself to see I will save you the trouble.
Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
So not only do bastards not get into heaven but no one for 10 generations will either. Real loving god isn’t it?
Then you have to admit that 3/ 4 of the earth will go to hell at this gods hand. Most people on this earth does not believe like you do. They do not believe in jesus they can not ask jesus for forgiveness so how will they get ot heaven? How will the jews get into heaven if jesus is the only way? How will any of the other faiths get into heaven if jesus is the only way. I refuse to believe in a god that would change the rules like god has done in the past. None of it is true of course. But as long as you get into heaven then I guess its ok.
Its true that we have has this same conversation over and over. I use to think just like you do now. I hear my old self when I read your posts. I know where you are coming from and I see your side of the argument. I really do. But I have to dismiss it because it can not be real. If that was real then god is going to send most people to hell and that is something I can not accept in an all loving god. Because I use to think like you do. I try to argue differently than most others do just with the flawed logic that is in the bible. I am in error in doing that. You can make the bible say anything you can see god in anything and you have the luxury of picking and choosing where you see god. I can not show you what I have found in life. You have to take the first steps in thinking logically about the bible and about the world around you. But of course that is like me telling you the sky is not blue. You will not believe it. Even tho I have seen the sky in all the colors under the rainbow.
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zoul
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 35
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Post by zoul on Jul 5, 2006 9:23:38 GMT -5
It always puzzles me when someone says " I believe in the ONE true god" I meen how would they know ?? It always makes me think of star gate sg1. When the sg1 team get on some planet and all these people are submitting themselfs to the gould, Isnt it ?? gowuld ?? something like that. And the sg1 team are like " Dude no these ain't real gods" And no one ever says "Well what are real gods like ?" So how can you tell if a god is a fake ? or indeed how can you tell if a god is real ? Lets face it you can't rely on writings that are a couple of thousand years old. These people thought the sky was made of water. A man called Demastratus ( i think) A greek chap worked out the world was not flat, he worked out the cecumfrance of the earth, he also worked out the distance from the earth to the sun and was like 2 kilomiters out. not bad huh ?? for a man living in 400 BC. He also had an atomic theory. Of course Aristole came along A few years after and becouse he was the mentor of Alexandria the grate had more influance than Demostratus. Aristole didn't like Demostratus to much or didn't respect him so came up with his own ideas. Did you know people thought becouse aristole told them so that insects have 4 legs ? It wasn't until the 1700's that someone actualy counted the legs on insects and found Aristole to be wrong. But this kind of thing has always happend alot of people whant knowledge or wisdom or to be enlightend, But instead of thinking for themselfs will follow blindly the so called knowledge of the ancents. I meen a good example of this is Galand and Hypocrotese. Makes you wonder how medical science ever got anywhere. If people are going into something they should always question it.. All religions basicly started off as magic. Yes religion was started by magic. If you know something in a tribe of people who don't you have power over the people it could be something like just observations. You notice that as your tribe moves around hunting and gathering that at certain time of the year or when the moon or sun are in a particular place then certain trees have fruits on them or the antilope are migrating in a valley some where. None of the other tribes people have noticed so you can say if we dance around this fire nakid and wear these animal skins we can apease the gods and be rewarded for it. The person will soon become a preist of the tribe as long as he dosent tell people how he knows. And preist soon get more power and influance over the tribe than a king would do. With power and influance you can controle. And all you have to do is make predictions and if it works out you get food riches and all the tribal sex partners you need. If you go wrong you can just blame it on someone in the tribe you don't like. No wonder people invented gods huh ? And the fundamental idea of it is you are worthwhile while you follow the rules and regulations of this particular religion anyone who thinks differntly must be controled by evil forces and must be killed or converted to the correct way. For the good of the people who do believe. Sorry i don't know what my point was now . But this much i must know, how is anyones religion any more real than anyone elses ?
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jul 6, 2006 2:35:26 GMT -5
Now may be great but what about the after life? If you have any doubts then figuer it out. If there is nothing to figuer out then why are you talking to me on this tread because I have this God thing figuered out. You assume too much because I can see God in all things. Now let me explain God does not agree with everything that is going on but since he has allowed for free will then he lets us do what we want to do. Even if things are going wrong God can flip it and make it into something that fits his plan and help his people out. The Bible does say count it all joy. Well the definition of a bastard is- Born of unwed parents; illegitimate. So since Mary wasn't wed to Jesus's father then by definition he was a basterd so that make something wrong with either your interpetation or the bible. So lets see. First Deu., which is one of the law books, means- the repetition of the law and it was written by Moses. We know what a bastard is in Hebrew it is mamzer', which means"polluted." enter-To become a participant, member, or part of; join: too old to enter the army; entered the discussion at a crucial moment. To gain admission to (a school, for example). Now to the "congregation of the Lord" 1. Congregation means-an assemblage of people or animals or things collected together 2.(Heb. kahal), the Hebrew people collectively as a holy community. Every circumcised Hebrew from twenty years old and upward was a member of the congregation. Strangers resident in the land, if circumcised, were, with certain exceptions admitted to the privileges of citizenship, and spoken of as members of the congregation. dictionary.reference.com/browse/congregationof-Belonging or connected to Lets try to decode this scripture so the scripture can read a illigitament child/person can not enter or gain admission into the congregation or an assemble of people collected together of or belonging/connected [to] the Lord. So there is nothing there talking about heaven or the after life right? There is nothing hear damning anyone to hell. What this scripture can be talking about is bastard are not gain full admission into people who belong to the lord. Now let me tell you that this is the jewish law that matter before Jesus came and died for our sins. The law was given to the Jewish people so that they could be an example to everyone who came can see that no matter what or how many laws you have it is worthless becasue no one can always adhire to them. Right now the law is just examples because we are living under grace becasue Jesus came and died for our sins. Now I believe that a lot of people are going to hell becasue it and, I am paraphasing, that wide is the road to distruction and a lot of people will be going down that road. Mt 7:13. Now byt the had of God well I see it another way. (As I have told you or at least said to someone) You say you don't need God and others feel the need to worship and believe in other God so they are in turn say what you are saying so God give you what you want. A life with out him unfortuanlly you get to spend eternity like that becasue humans are eternal. Quite trying to make God evil because he allows you to make your own choice. You get what you are asking for. So like I said if you want to live your life without him commite to it and don't complain about going to hell but know what you are committing to. My boyfriend likes Star Gate SG1. I on the other hand like battlestar Galactica. Still that has nothing to do with this conversation really. I guess it comes down to faith and experience. I have expereicen the power of God. He has answerd may praiers. so does that mean you don't believe what this man wrote? If I am not mistaken his writings would be a coulpe of thousand years old right? That is a broad and bold statment do you really believe it to be true? All of the religons? If I am not mistaken religon is just a way to go about something. Like you can religously comb your hair everynight at 10 pm. Well to let you know religon is a man maid thing. Oh wait you already know that. I am not conserned about religon that much.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 6, 2006 6:08:12 GMT -5
morning guerrilla, First off why am I here? I’m an atheist and I’m on an atheist board seems fitting to me. That is why I am here. You on the other hand are not an atheist so why are you here? To convert us to god? You should know that is not going to happen. So are you questing your faith. That is the only reason why you would be here. Unless you think you could convert one of us. If so how is that working out for you?
What about the after life? Nothing. I don’t think there is an after life. Nothing to worry about there. What about the before life? What about the time that has past before you were born? Did you do anything in that time that might keep you from going to heaven now? If like you say, humans are eternal that would mean that you had a before life also. I don’t think there is a before life, do you? If not then why concern yourself with an after life? Did my eternal life start when I was born? That is a contradiction in terms isn’t it?
I know you see god in all things. Do you really see god in the worst part of nature? Deformity at birth, stillborn, even birthmarks, or conjoined twins. These are things that the church use to say was a curse and were an abomination from god. Do you know better than the church? And if god chose to allow free will and he get mad at us exercising our free will then he is a child. That would be like me giving my child something to play with and getting mad at him for not playing with it the way I think he should play with the toy. Its stupid. If freewill is a gift from god he should let us enjoy our freewill. I don’t give money to someone and tell them how to spend it. It’s a gift. I don’t have the right to tell them what to do with it even tho I gave it to them in the first place.
And as far as the bible verse is concerned. That is the whole problem with the bible you can take one passage and make it say 4 different things. So lets take this stupidity out one more step.
Now to the "congregation of the Lord" 1. Congregation means-an assemblage of people or animals or things collected together 2.(Heb. kahal), the Hebrew people collectively as a holy community.
If you can not go where the people gather “church” then how are you going to confess your sins to the elders and get baptized? You can not do it yourself can you? If you baptized yourself because you can not go to church where people gather in the name of the lord would it work in the eyes of the lord? You have to confess your sins don’t you?
The way I see it, it is damning someone to hell. like I said that is the whole problem with the bible you can make it say anything.
Jesus didn’t come to wipe away old law but I came to uphold the law. Jesus said that himself in the bible. So the old laws are still enforced but like I said you can always make this book say anything you want. Its real covenant
All religions come down to that. Everyone of them. So like zoul said what makes your god different? You say the same thing that a muslim would say. I have heard a hindu say the same thing. So what makes your god different? How do you KNOW that your god is real and the other 3000 wrong? How do you know this? If it is just faith then you do not know this. And you are lying when you say you do.
Now who is stretching? There is proof that the earth is round. And we have working atomic laws. Or do you think the earth is flat like the bible says it is. Don’t ask me where it says that. You have to find that for yourself. There is no proof of your god or any other.
I love this. If you don’t care about religion then you reject all the teachings of your god and jesus. That is the only thing that defines them. Without religion you can not have a god or jesus. They go hand in hand. People that gather in the lords name wrote a book and discussed which books to leave in and which to take out then you go to this gathering thousands of years latter and kiss gods ass some more, all the while reading the bible in an attempt to understand the god and jesus. No other book says anything about your god or jesus. So if you take religion and the bible out of your beliefs you take the foundation out of it.
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Post by solidsquid on Jul 6, 2006 8:21:46 GMT -5
The dream can be used as a tool to communicate to you when ever God feels like it. Not all dreams are him talking to you though. He is a God and can choose when, where and how he is going to talk to you. Not unlike people today who have many different forms of communication. To me it seems like you are reaching with your argument. Oh the irony.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jul 7, 2006 3:54:15 GMT -5
Good early morning to you too Mr. Shine
I can't convert you. That may be why I first got on this website but it isn't why I am here now. I used to be so discouraged because I though that I could actually convert someone. Then I learned that I can't possible make you believe something you don't want to believe in. So I just share my faith and try to dispel some of the mysteries and untruth that are spoken about my faith. Still, sometimes I don’t even known why I am on this website, but I believe it is for some good. I know it has done me a lot of good. So if it is just to help me grown in my faith then that is enough to keep talking in circles with all of you.
So you aren't afraid of dieing? What if there is an after life? I truly and honestly hope that you are living life to the fullest and you are not letting your past or any negativity to seep into your life. Since you think that this is all then I implore you to live a happy and fulfilled life. Don't waste energy on negative situations and things that you have no ability to change. Also if you need to forgive anyone then do it because I will just drag you down. I am also talking to any of you other atheist that might be reading this. It is very important that you life is a good life because you believe this is all that you have so it would be wasteful to live a negative and unsatisfying life.
You know what you are right people aren't eternal. God is eternal but humans aren't. We have a beginning but we don't have an end.
Yes I do. All things can be used and I stress used for the glory of God. A bad situation can be used to help people grow closer to God.
Do you see these things as the worst parts of nature?
First off I would check yourself with that “child” business. I understand that you don't believe in him but you don't even know him so don't go judging what you don’t have experience with. Freewill is a privilege not a gift. If I ever said it was a gift I was wrong. Privileges work differently than gift do. He doesn't have to like what you do because he is God. He has rules and if you break it he all kinds of rights to get upset. (You need to stop putting human attributes on God.) Even if you give someone a gift and he or she uses it in a way that you don't like you can still get upset. Still since it is a privilege you can be punished for going outside the of God’s rules. As you know and as I have said before every action has a consequence.
You are getting your wires crossed because at the time the scripture was written they don't use the word church. It is usually talking about the lord’s people as the Israelites. Also at that time they didn't baptize themselves. Baptism is and outward expression of an inward change. You get baptized to show the world that you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior. Some people believe you need to do it to get into heaven but that would be wrong because the man crucified with Jesus was allowed into heaven that same day. He didn't have time to be baptized.
Now you can confess your sins to God. You don't need anyone else. He is the one that is going to save and forgive you soul not a pastor. If you wronged someone then you can go and ask them for forgiveness but even if they don’t forgive you it doesn’t matter. What matters is that you understand that you were wrong and you are trying to make right what you did.
Still it could be a difficult situation for anyone who is considered a bastard to ever really gain full admission into Jewish community.
You are kind of right. I was a bit wrong. Jesus came to full fill the law. (Mt 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill.”) That is why they call him the living word because he was the prophecy fulfilled. Still we don't have to worry about not eating pig ect because all you have to do is accept Jesus in your heart and you get to enter into Heaven. I know it doesn't say haven but where is the Father? In heaven. (Jon 14:6 "Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.")
You can say the same about anything. I watch people do it on TV all the time. Can you clam to understand what War and Peace is about because you quoted one sentence from the middle of the book? If not then why would you think that you could hold the bible on different standards? Like all things you have to put some effort into understanding what the bible is saying. If you just read it once you are probably missing a lot.
Well first I have a relationship with my God. We talk daily. I ask him questions he answers them. I pray for things he gives them. Let me give you some examples. I prayed to be able to do my wedding for a cheap. Well someone anonymous paid the down payment of my cake so it only cost $175. Then just yesterday I learn that this lady at my church who used to show wedding dresses told my mom that she has a $2,000 dress just in the back of her closet and she is willing to give it to me for free. Yeah I said free. Heck, just for yall that are doing fine without God I want to let you know I am doing exceptional with him! I also prayed for a job and he told me that I would be getting one this month. Guess what... I just had a job interview yesterday and I am expecting them to call me back. Soon after I am married I am going to be moving to California. Well I need about $4,000 for the first two months rent. Well just to let you know I just got a scholarship from my church in the amount of $1,500. So now all I have to do is raise $500 for the half I have to raise. My fiancé also applied and even though he didn't get the scholarship but he is going to get some money anyway. Well I will tell you about some more things. When I was in San Antonio and working for Banana Republic I didn't want to go to work and I prayed not to go and he told me not even to get ready so I didn't and I didn't have to Go to work. The other day I was going to teach for the first time at my church. I was all cool and collected then he told me (God that is) to use my art as a tool for my teaching. Just to let you know my photographs are very graphic and they contain the bible bleeding. Well I didn't think that it was the right audience for that so I kind of just pushed it away. Then the next day my mom brought it up to me. She didn't know I had had that conversation with God the day before. So I just decided to listen to what God was saying because that was the second time he brought it up. Man I was sweating bullets. I didn't know what people would think of me after they saw my artwork. Then I realized that I am not living my life for them but for God. He is were my alliance should lie. Later God told me that it would be very effective and that no one would leave and it would be just positive. Well that was exactly what happened. That was by far the scariest thing I have done to date. I also know that he is God because he came to me as a very young child and I instantly knew he was God. I have been talking to him for about 20 yrs. Also he has the same personality when I talk to other people about him. I found that when I was in San Antonio and going to church there the sermons that were taught there were on the same subject that were going on in my church in Austin. I have history with him. Faith isn't blind. I have to put my trust in something. He has given me ample reasons to believe in him.
What I was trying to point out was that he said that you can't trust anything that was written a couple of thousands of years ago but then he talked about someone who was contemporary to some of the things that were going on in the Bible. I wanted to see if he notice that he contradicted himself. I believe the earth is round but in all honesty what does it really matter. Flat round God is still God and the Bible is still pertinent to today. Do you think it is wrong to murder? If you think the bible is out dated then I guess that little law is out dated too.
God didn't come to bind us by religion. Yes you do need to do things with discipline and organization but religion is not going to save you. Jesus is the only thing on the wide wide round earth that can do that. Plan and simple. That isn't religion it is the truth and as they say it will set you free.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 7, 2006 19:43:33 GMT -5
Glad to read that. More people come here just for that. I have to admit that you have stuck around longer than I thought you would. Hell you have out lasted some atheists. Don’t know if that is a good thing for you or not but its true. So congrats.
[qote] So you aren't afraid of dieing? What if there is an after life?[/quote]
What if?........... that is a huge question. What if frogs had wings? Then they wouldn’t hit their ass when they jump. What if alah is real? Your going to hell with me. What if Zeus is real after all this time? What if the Hindus are correct for Christ sake? (get it? I made a funny lol) For that mater what if the jews are correct and jesus is not the son of god? What if? What if? What if? What if? What if? What if? What if? What if? I’m not going to play that game anymore. It drove me crazy when I was younger. Anyone could be correct and if you are truthful with me and yourself you have to admit that you could be wrong and any number of situations could be correct. When I came to accept that point in my life I had to walk away from my christen upbringing. It was not easy but the more I thought about it the more I had to admit that anyone could be correct. So while it was easy to say that I could never believe in ahla so why not jesus? Only because I was raised to believe in him that is why. When I came to realize that, it was extremely easy to see that jesus is no more real than zeus. While you will not agree with this because it disassembles the foundation of Christianity, it’s the only way I’m truthful with myself.
I agree with you 100% I know you will be living the same way. You don’t need to have jesus or god in my life to live that way. Live your life to the fullest no matter who you believe is going to punish your enemies.
Why don’t we have a end? Many people that believe in god does think that life can and will end just as it began. See I don’t know if we have an after life or a before life. What does it matter? If a god exists then the odds are stacked against me that I’m kissing the right guys ass. Lets see about 1 in what, 3000?
Yes. I do see them as the worst part of nature. Even so far as seeing them as flaws in nature that can and will be fixed through science. We have fixed many flaws in nature. Polio comes to mind. God seemed to like to have polio inflicting his children. Well his children didn’t care for it. So we went out and destroyed every case of it on the face of the earth. If we left it to god we would still have that with us. So next time you hear someone say that we don’t need to do stem cell research say that we already do play god and have been playing that roll for 100s of years. The debate is mute we are fixing god’s mistakes if you care to look at it that way. I like to think of it as fixing mistakes in nature and forming the world around us the way we want it.
I was a Christian and read the bible I was best friends with two preachers sons. Spen the night with them many many times. Helped one move to the city where I lived. Went to church every Sunday and night wendsday afternoon and seen my fair share of early morning services. You know the ones you get there at 4 in the morning? Yea praise god!!!!! Whoo hoo. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I knew god very well. Thank you very much. I don’t assume to know your past please give the same courtesy. Might want to ask me about my past. Now please don’t take offence that is not meant in the same way as some other would mean it. See people seem to assume a lot. But that is wrong to do. I think I have the right to judge god actions by what the bible says. after all if he is real he gave me the ability to know the difference between wrong and right. So if I think it is wrong for me to believe in Christianity why should i?
Everyone who believes in a god any god will say the same thing and feel the same way as you do. They all do it. If you agree that some are wrong you have to agree that you might be wrong also. Like I said before its one of the points I had to get past myself when I was a christen.
If all you have is one book that talks about god and there is a world wide religion around it you can not separate the two. They are one and the same. If it wasn’t for the people in the religion before the book was written. The bible would not be here god did not drop it out of the sky. So the religion wrote the book that everyone reads and stats that the two are somehow separate. No way the two are separate.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jul 8, 2006 0:35:50 GMT -5
Even though you say this route was difficult was it easier to just accept there was no god then try and really figure it out?
I am not disagreeing with you because it disassembles my foundation. I am disagreeing with you because I know the truth. Like I said before I have a relationship with him and I talk to him daily if not continually.
I am glad that you agree and I hope you life is great but I must say that living with God is a lot better than thinking and trying to live without him.
I don't know I just don't think that God uncreates anything. (Still how should I know?)
So you are just going to give up because it seems impossible to you to figure it out. Just because there are so many out there doesn't mean that they will all speak to you. Only one has to speak and show itself to have powers of a god. Is it not a statistic in basketball that only 2% of those who want to be a star in the NBA make it? Still, it doesn't stop those who are passionate about it from trying. Heck if Michael Jordan had given up when he didn't make the JV team (I think) because it just seemed too hard then he would have never become as a one of the greatest basketball star that ever lived.
Also if you are just trying to kiss his ass then you really don't care that much about him do you? All you are trying to do is get close enough because of what he can do for you.
Wow the almighty human. Had the power to remove all ills through science. Wait no we don't do we because we don't have the cure for AID. Also we don't know the future so that we can get a head start on solving all the problems that may come about at that time. Well anyway science will save us all. No… wait science can be wrong sometime because people can be wrong. It can even hurt us. Look at what the science of the atomic bomb did. Science isn't a magical tool that will heal all of our ills. It isn't going to make us treat each other better and in some cases it is a crutch. Look at our society most of us are all jacked up. We have so many things that make stuff go faster so we can spend time working more. Then we can't sleep at night because we have too much to do. So we need more stuff to make our lives easier so that we can do more things. It is an unending cycle. Then we get depressed because we don't know why we are wasting our time at a job we hate so we can buy things that just clutter our lives and don’t make us feel any better than we did before we didn’t have them. We think some magical pill, or car, or surgery will make it all better. When all we need to do is trust in the lord, and give him all or our problems.
If God makes mistakes then how do you know if you are not a mistake? Then if you are the mistake then how can a mistake possible even dream of fixing another mistake. Wouldn't it just make it worst? Still lets say that you are not a mistake but made just the way he wanted to then what make someone with a disease a mistake? Hey couldn't it be evolution like sickle Cell? Now don't get me wrong it is good to heal people but sill aren't we all going to die anyway? It is just that these people’s bodies are deteriorating faster than ours? Would you call getting hit by a bus one of Gods mistakes? That person died quicker than the majority of people. I would say that you are full of your self. We are fallible so If God is fallible then we are screwed and there is nothing we can do about it.
Do you think that going to church services and having friends that were preachers son makes you know God. Man that is like saying. I went to the white house and talked to some of the people that worked there so I know the president. Have you meet God? Have you talked to him? Do you know what he sounds like when he talks (metaphorically)? Did you ever have anything that resembled a relationship with him? If it is a no then you don't know him. So you need to check yourself when you are talking about God. I think it is really weird how you tell me how he is this way and the things that he has done when you calm he doesn't exist. And if you clam he doesn't exist then you don't know him right? Because you never met him right? So if you never met him then you don't know him right?
What is this business about 4 a.m. services that is Mad!
No I don't. If some one tells me that 2+2=5 then I going to say that they are wrong. I am not going to question it because it know that 2+2=4. I am going to tell that I am right about there being a God and that his son Jesus came down to die for our sins and if you accept him as your savior you will inherit the kingdom of heaven. I know he is God from experience. I am right. You know I think it is interesting that you only quoted the first sentence out of that entire paragraph but didn't commit on all of the things that I experience with God. I am not just saying I have a relationship because it sounds good. I am say it because I do.
First off the bible is a collection of books. Yes you can separate the two I know there are people out there that don't have the bible who know and trust in God and will be in heaven with me and who ever else wants to live eternity with God. All of the copies of the bible ands the torahs can disappear off the face of the earth and God will still be God and he will still talk to those who listen. It even teaches in Isaiah about the follies of religion. If you are acting like you are worshiping God then you might as well sit at home because you are wasting you time. Religion can be an act but if you God to Church day in and day out because you know that when you step into that building you are going to connect to fellow believers and hear something that will allow you to grow closer to God then that is a different thing entirely. It is all about you motives. I need to be able to separate religion from God because God may ask me to do something that is out of the bounds of my religion. So I don't want to be stuck in a religious mode when God who I am untimely accountable to asks me to do something else.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 8, 2006 16:47:41 GMT -5
I think I did figure it out. I know we have come to different conclusions in life about this but I feel just like you do that I am correct. I have more proof than “I just know I am right” I have some facts to back me up. I don’t need to rely on my feelings. There are no facts about god. There are facts about evolution and the evolution of the universe. Anyone who believes in any god will say the same thing. Do all gods exist? Is everyone correct who say that? Like I said before you just make it up as you go. No facts to support what you say. You just go on what you feel. ? If god told everyone that they didn’t have to believe in him and you didn’t have to fear him then no one would believe in him. So I don’t follow your question. If god wan’t going to send you to heaven and all your enemies to hell then why would you believe in him? If he didn’t talk to you and you had no reason to believe he was real then you would not believe in him. Not yet. Do you believe we will never have a cure for aids? Do you believe that one day we will be able to stop the virus and cure people? We didn’t have a cure for the black pelage, we didn’t have a cure for many many things that ill us, but now we do. I say we are doing very well. Too bad no matter how much good mankind does you can not see it. You would rather point to the bad things that man do. For every bad thing that has happened many more good things have happened. Wish you could see that. Don’t follow a god that doesn’t know what to do. Really? Do you mean that it is too much to ask that you get up early to go to an early morning easter service? God forbid that you have to inconvenience yourself to praise god. That is what many preachers have said. Also there you go again assuming to know me. You don’t. you don’t know what kind of relationship I had with god. For you to say that I didn’t have one because I am now an atheist just goes to show how you make up your own facts about life and the people around you. You must already have your mind made up what kind of person I am. Do you think you can hang around preachers and people without getting god in your life? Raised around them eat at the table have them at the family house. Can you really in good faith say that you know that I never had a relationship with god? Do you realize how crazy that sounds? I can see suicide bombers using the same logic. Or the Christians who bomb abortion clinics saying the same thing. Please if god starts telling you do something that is questionable please seek mental help. I’m serious here. There are people in my family that have heard god and tried to kill someone. You would not be the first. I hope I’m reading too much into that but when I read something like that it throes up many red flags for me.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jul 9, 2006 11:41:38 GMT -5
We can't both be right. I don't feel that I am right I know that I am right.
So what is your proof that there is no God? I have personal proof that there is a God. If you think that evolutions disproves God than I going to have to say that you are wrong. Evolution just shows how things change on this earth. There are gaps in that theory and a lot of guess work. I don't know what is popular today when it comes to evolution of humans but what I have learned seems pieced together.
You sure? So when you believed you talked to God constantly? Well let me tell you this I don't just talk to God he talks back.
Just because I don't know all the answers doesn't mean I am making things up as I go. Do you know everything about your line of work? There is nothing new for you to learn? I don't rely on what I feel. Man feelings are so wishy washy that is why I know what I believe. (People get themselves in trouble when they just rely on there feelings.) You are not an authority on what is correct and what is factual. Still, I will give you something; look at the cycle of life. Even though things decay they just change form and become something else.
God gave you free will because he would rather live the rest of eternity with those who really loved him than with people who had no choice whether to worship him or not.
Because he came to you and you grew to know and love him. Because he showed you what life was like without him. Man this isn't about getting back at those who burned you. That is a waste of time. Is that what you think believing in God is just what you can get out of it. Do you know what love is? Do you understand that he loves you and he gave his life for you? Don't miss out on this. This is the single greatest thing that could ever happen to you. If you are not living for God everything else is meaningless and temporary. You can't take physical things with you after death. Those that know you and love you will also die and soon what you did in your life will be forgotten. Still if you live for God he will never forget and he will bless you. If not on earth then in heaven.
Right. Still you need to know that he talks to everyone but not everyone will pay attention to his call. When he comes back then everyone will remember all the signs the he showed them.
Yeah we will find the cure for Aids but there will be another disease that come that we won't have a cure for. Humans will never be able to cure all the diseases that plague us. That was what I was saying. God is the only thing that is has the power to cure all diseases. I also believe that God has given us the power and knowledge to find the cure for those diseases that we did cure. Even if the person that found the cure doesn't believe in him that doesn't mean that God won't use him/her for his plan.
I see that. What I wish you could see is that no matter what happens God loves you and wish you would love him back. The love from God is the greatest thing in the world.
Yeah, and you shouldn’t miss quote me either I was making a point. My God is not fallible like man. So that is why I follow him.
So you go to church for your pastor? I don't have to praise God just at a building. I shouldn't just allow Easter Sunday be the only day that I reflect on the resurrection. Also how good will my praise be at 4 in the morning? I may be able to praise him better at 10 am. I may get a great deal more out of the service and be able to give more to God. What was the use of a 4 am service anyway? Why not 7? I don't get the reason to do that, and I hope that it wasn't just for show by your pastor.
Well I can only go off on what you have told me. In one sentence you tell me that you are an atheist, which is one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. Then you tell me you know who God is. You need to figure out what you believe. Either you don't believe in God there for it would be impossible for you to know who he is. Or you believe there is a God but you just don't like him. Which one? Also, just because I know the president's daughter doesn't mean I know who the president is. Nor does it mean that I had a relationship with the president. It just mean I know about the president.
Do you realize that what you think it sounds like doesn't matter? I don't worship at the foot of necroshine or any other person for that matter. God is my point of reference not what others say I should do to be a good Christian. He is the creator of the entire universe and I am supposed to say "No wait God my religion says I shouldn't do that" That is stupid and that means that I don't put all of my trust in him.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 9, 2006 16:32:16 GMT -5
Arrogance nothing more.
The same proof that there is no troll under the bridge. It’s the same proof that ahla isn’t real. The same proof that babies don’t come from cabbage patches the same way I know there is no tea pot in space. If there is no evidence pointing to the positive that something is real then you have to move on to something that does. I can not disprove god but you can not prove god. I can not prove I have an invisible pink unicorn in my basement. You can not disprove that I do. All I know is I’m glad its turds are invisible also. Can not step on them.
Get to a shrink for that. Really get that checked out. Hearing voices is not good. Having them talk back is worse.
If he knows the future and how I’m going to die before I was born I don’t have much of a free will now do i?
Ah yes the great plan. What is it again? Don’t know do you? You have no idea what this plan is. You are sounding more like a preacher reaching right now than you have in the past. Your changing. Now we can solve aids but not until god does it through us. He may even do it with someone that doesn’t believe in him. Wouldn’t that take away the mans freewill? See you can’t even see where your arguments tear down. please think about what you are saying. Don’t just try to go on like a preacher would. It will not get you anywhere.
I don’t miss quote. Its ctrl + c and ctrl +v for me. besides he made man like that. Its not our fault to sin he made us to want to sin. Why should we be punished for doing something that is fun to do when he made it fun to do in the first place?
You should know that I use to believe in god and pure logic would tell you that I did think that I had a real relationship with god. If you have been keeping up with our discussions. If I was raised in a Baptist family and went to church all the time then why wouldn’t I have had believe with all my hart? I did. I t seems so stupid to me now. But I did believe there was an eternal god in the heavens wanting us to come home. We just had to find the way. Well….. f#ck that now.
you will in my next picture. Guerrillasaint at the foot of the great and mighty necroshine. What would this picture look like? Hmmm……… oh. Thanks for the idea.
Oh I’m sorry but this last post you sounded like you are just preaching. I like it better when you try to pint to some facts. Instead of just saying that god talks to me and I know I am right. That gets tired quick. Come on you can debate better than that can’t you?
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jul 11, 2006 1:54:59 GMT -5
No, confidence in what I know
I have evidence. Like I said before I know God. We talk all the time. Still, you say you don't have evidence that there is no God. So I guess that means you can't disprove what I say. It may take a while or it may not but everyone will know that God exist.
Does the poop stink because that would suck if you tracked it all over you house?
How could you have thought that you had any relationship with God if you never communicated with him? What do you call a relationship?
Just because he knows how you go about life doesn't mean he makes you do things. He knows what you are going to do so therefore know what to do in turn to make thing work the way he wants them to. God isn't a puppet master he is a great strategist.
Just because I don't know all the bits in pieces of his plan doesn't mean I don't know he has a plan. Yeah I may have changed but people change. If they don't then there is something wrong.
that wouldn’t effect the man's free will because God would be giving him what he wants. Those researchers are looking for the cure so the would just be getting what they want and what they are working so hard for.
All he did was make us have free-will so that means we have the power to make our own choices. He didn't make us want to sin because to sin means to remove yourself from his will. Still, he knew we would sin (which doesn’t mean he made us) so he planned for that. He wants true love not forced devotion so if he was going to get it then we need to want to love him. Meaning makeing a conscience choice to follow him. To me this just sound like another one of the lies you tell yourself so that nothing you do is your fault.
What are you talking about when you say he punishes us for having fun?
No it wouldn't. I have heard too many people who have said that they believe in God but would look at you crazy when you ask them if you talk to him. Also you may have believed that you had a relationship with him doesn't mean that you did. If you truly had a relationship then you wouldn't be an atheist and you would understand some of the things that I have written.
I guess this time art will not nor will it ever imitate life.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 11, 2006 5:22:50 GMT -5
It would seem this has boiled down to “yes it is” and “no it isn’t” argument. Now I like that monty python sketch but I don’t want to play it out here.
Let me just say that I have had real experience with people in my family hearing voices and them talking back. If it is true and I’m reading you correctly you positively say that you hear voices and they talk back to you please seek help. I’m not talking religion here I’m talking mental health. My mom almost killed herself from voices she heard. I have had cousins also thought they was talking to god. Please seek help, if you are hearing voices “really hearing voices” seek help. I’m talking to you as a concerned human for another human.
That is because most people do not hear voices. That doesn’t mean that they don’t believe. If you think people have to hear voices and they talk back to have a relationship with god you are the one in error. Please seek help. You do have a problem. I’m still talking to you concerned about a fellow human. You need help if you do hear god talking.
I hope you would not do something crazy if the voices told you to do something you shouldn’t do. Please seek help and try to think why no one else around you hear the voices you do. Why would god talk to you and not everyone else? He is god and could talk to everyone where they would know it is god. You seem to have a problem and I hope you seek some medical help.
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