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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 12, 2007 16:20:22 GMT -5
No. Where does it say that he made everyting way we see it today in the Bible?
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Post by necroshine on Mar 12, 2007 16:58:43 GMT -5
if it isn't then point to the part to where to talks abobut evolution.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Mar 12, 2007 23:24:58 GMT -5
First Necroshine there is no reason to get angry. This is first and for most a forum for Intelligent discussion. Guerrillasaint could you please pull your head out of the sand and look at reason for a second. I mean please Guerrillasaint you cannot possibly be serious that you believe in all the myths told in the bible. I am surprised that two things have not come up in the conversation yet actually. If god allowed the death of all things in this world because of the mistake of Adam and eve, then you have to understand that nothing in the world made the decision beside Adam and eve. That means that because of them every animal , tree, flower, and blade of grass has died because of their mistake. Next you cannot possibly be serious on the whole meat eater thing. We have documented evidence of creatures millions of years before man ever existed that ate meat. Also something I have been wondering if the church is all knowing why is it they don't make note of these beings who are prior to us and lived for millions (not mere thousands but millions) of years? account for that.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 13, 2007 6:28:53 GMT -5
Hi dragon, I would like this to be a forum for intelligent discussion. But when a christen doesn’t even want to acknowledge logic even on the basic level where is the intelligence? “maybe meat eaters didn’t exist” then they say that the bible doesn’t say that the animals was not made the way we see them now. That would be going against all the preachers and priests that say all the animals on the earth was made the way we see them today.
But past that, saint said that she talks directly to god. They say that god comes to them and has open conversation with god. That would be like me talking to my childhood invisible friend. If I still did that now that I’m in my 30’s I would not be taken seriously and would need help for my disorder. Without admitting logic you can not have an intelligent discussion. Would you continue to talk to someone about the weather when they clam that clouds was made up of cotton and they knew this because they could fly up to and lay on them? The discussion has to stop at that point doesn’t it? It’s the same when saint says that nothing died before adam and eve bit the apple. On the most basic level of logic that would mean nothing could eat anything. Life could not exist like this. Life feeds on life. Plus I’m not a jew I don’t talk to walls. At least not out of habit.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 14, 2007 17:57:47 GMT -5
Since my head is in the sand I would like to ask you some questions.
1.Is there an earth? 2.Are there things living on the earth? 3.Do these things die? 4.Why do they die? 5.Why do things break down? 6.How was the world created? 7.How do you know this is true? 8.Where did the substance that made the world come from? 9.How do you know it come from this source? 10.Where you here when the world was created? 11.If you weren’t then can you be 100% sure that your answers for 6-9 is true? 12.Do men lie? 13.Do men make mistakes? 14.If men lie and make mistakes how do you know that what you have stated isn't wrong? 15.Can there be a large group of people under the wrong assumption? 16.If that is so does that mean even a group of people who come to the same conclusion can be wrong? 17.If you can’t count on a group of people being right then who or what can you count on? 18.How do you know you can count on this person/thing? 19.Have you ever been wrong in your life? 20.Have you ever been so sure about something but you found out that you where wrong? 21.How did you know it was wrong? 22. If you start with the wrong idea and use logic with the answer be illogical? 23. Is the definition for logic truth? 24. Is logic your standard? 24. Why is logic your standard? 25. How do you know there is no God? 26. Can you be 100% sure of this? 27. If our existence is by chance then is it logical to believe that by chance we may all not exist? 28. Is science flawed? 29. Are those who use science flawed? 30. Do you have a soul? 31. How are you sure of this?
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Post by necroshine on Mar 15, 2007 6:11:10 GMT -5
Ok gs I will play along for right now. But if you start repeating yourself or contradicting what you say then I’m out.
1.Is there an earth?
Yes, what would make you think there isn’t?
2.Are there things living on the earth?
Again yes
3.Do these things die? yes
4.Why do they die? Entropy and dna not copying itself 100% stuff just wearing out. If things didn’t die then that would be odd.
5.Why do things break down? Entropy again
6.How was the world created? Gravity using stuff from exploded stars for the simple answer
7.How do you know this is true? We see it happening.
8.Where did the substance that made the world come from? Exploded stars
9.How do you know it come from this source? We see it happen
10.Where you here when the world was created? Don’t have to be
11.If you weren’t then can you be 100% sure that your answers for 6-9 is true? Absolutely
12.Do men lie? yes
13.Do men make mistakes? Yes
14.If men lie and make mistakes how do you know that what you have stated isn't wrong? Because its not just one man saying this it is a collection of men poring over the same data and coming to the same conclusion. Not just head nodding from what is written in a book 2000 years ago.
15.Can there be a large group of people under the wrong assumption? Yes they are called christens Muslims, jews and such
16.If that is so does that mean even a group of people who come to the same conclusion can be wrong? Yes see last answer
17.If you can’t count on a group of people being right then who or what can you count on? We can count on questioning everything. We rely on the data we get and we question the accuracy of the data. Then we only rely on the data till we get more accurate data then we use that. we don’t stop at the first science book that was written 2000 years ago. We question everything.
18.How do you know you can count on this person/thing? Its not just one person. We even question the people that bring us the data. That doesn’t happen in the Vatican.
19.Have you ever been wrong in your life? Of course but then I change my mind I don’t twist things around to fit my world view.
20.Have you ever been so sure about something but you found out that you where wrong? Yes Christianity and lots of things about science. But I change my way of thinking.
21.How did you know it was wrong? Smarter people than I let me know.
22. If you start with the wrong idea and use logic with the answer be illogical? No. unless you want to twist things around to fit your world view.
23. Is the definition for logic truth? Logic is the study of the principles and criteria of valid inference and demonstration Its only the truth as far as we can interpret the data.
24. Is logic your standard? Absolutely
24. Why is logic your standard? Show me something better.
25. How do you know there is no God? I don’t know there is no god of any kind but we don’t see any evidence of any god especially an all loving god.
26. Can you be 100% sure of this? Its what we see.
27. If our existence is by chance then is it logical to believe that by chance we may all not exist? One day we will not. Yes by chance one day an asteroid my hit earth and kill every man by chance.
28. Is science flawed? Yes but when we see what parts are we change it. Unlike the bible. You see things that are wrong in that then you just ignore that part.
29. Are those who use science flawed? Of course but from the check and balances of many people looking at the same data makes it less of a chance of being flawed.
30. Do you have a soul? no
31. How are you sure of this? The same way I’m sure I don’t have a gills. We don’t see or detect one in the body.
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Mar 15, 2007 8:04:44 GMT -5
1.Is there an earth?
Yes... it's kind of hard to miss that.
2.Are there things living on the earth?
Yes... again, it's observable.
3.Do these things die?
Yes... law of nature. Despite what the Bible says, the Earth will not abide forever.
4.Why do they die?
It's part of life that things do die, nothing is made to last forever.
5.Why do things break down?
I'll let the scientific based answer this.
6.How was the world created?
Again, I'll let the scientific based answer this.
7.How do you know this is true?
Not my arena...
8.Where did the substance that made the world come from?
Again, I'll let the scientific based answer this.
9.How do you know it come from this source?
I don't, again, not my arena.
10. Where you here when the world was created?
Silly question.
11.If you weren’t then can you be 100% sure that your answers for 6-9 is true?
No one can, no matter what they believe or know. That doesn't mean that you use superstition to come up with something to fill the gap.
12.Do men lie?
Yes, apparently they do in all things.
13.Do men make mistakes?
Of course.
14.If men lie and make mistakes how do you know that what you have stated isn't wrong?
I don't. I accept what I know because of what has been learned.
15.Can there be a large group of people under the wrong assumption?
Yes, they are called Christians - and other beliefs that go on "assumptions."
16.If that is so does that mean even a group of people who come to the same conclusion can be wrong?
Yes, that is what I've been saying about religion.
17.If you can’t count on a group of people being right then who or what can you count on?
What works and what doesn't according to nature.
18.How do you know you can count on this person/thing?
Because life and nature is what it is and I accept it as such.
19.Have you ever been wrong in your life?
More than a few times.
20.Have you ever been so sure about something but you found out that you where wrong?
Of course - I was an evangelical christian and learned how the Bible was a fraud.
21.How did you know it was wrong?
I accepted the facts of this and moved on with my life - after a severe depression.
22. If you start with the wrong idea and use logic with the answer be illogical?
If used properly even logic would let you know if what you held to be true is false.
23. Is the definition for logic truth?
Not necessarily.
24. Is logic your standard?
Not always... some things are not based on nothing but logic, but must be accepted as they are within a certain scope. This is usually due to a lack of knowledge, not logic.
24. Why is logic your standard?
It isn't always.
25. How do you know there is no God?
I don't know that, but I don't think of God in the same way that you do.
26. Can you be 100% sure of this?
No, and you can't prove a negative as far as I know.
27. If our existence is by chance then is it logical to believe that by chance we may all not exist?
Yes, doesn't bother me. Like necroshine said, a meteor could end it all.
28. Is science flawed?
All things are... this is due to human error.
29. Are those who use science flawed?
Again, only according to human error.
30. Do you have a soul?
I don't believe in a soul as you do, my philosophy is a completely different approach.
31. How are you sure of this?
I'm not, it's a belief not a fact.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 15, 2007 15:29:55 GMT -5
Thank you very much for anwering my questions.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 15, 2007 18:59:45 GMT -5
so what is the point to all of this gs?
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 17, 2007 20:25:20 GMT -5
I was wondering.
So, Snafui, since you don't think of God the same way I do. How do you think of him. What do you think he is or it is like?
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Mar 17, 2007 22:49:33 GMT -5
Very simply, that if there is a god, then it cannot be described by human means. Whether this is a force of nature or something behind nature I have no way of knowing and freely admit this. My image of god does not rely upon what someone may believe, say or do - this image is my own and I know this. It is more akin to the Taoist philosophy than to the western view.
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on Mar 18, 2007 10:24:04 GMT -5
Very simply, that if there is a god, then it cannot be described by human means. Whether this is a force of nature or something behind nature I have no way of knowing and freely admit this. My image of god does not rely upon what someone may believe, say or do - this image is my own and I know this. It is more akin to the Taoist philosophy than to the western view. Excellent. I feel very much the same way. I would tend to call "God" more of a force than a being. It's arrogant that humans would make a god in their own image. Despite what the bible says, it was written by humans. There is some serious self-interest and self-preservation in its pages that is much more obvious than any of the "good" book's claims to the contrary.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 18, 2007 15:17:52 GMT -5
Questions are a odd thing. When you answer one question the answer should bring to light another question. This is the way things are it is discovery at its basic level. You can not have all the answers. The bible would have you believe that someday we will know all. I’m not sure even science can know all. Here is way. You asked this question
Where did the substance that made the world come from?
I said exploded stars. This is true. But that only opens up another question. Where did the stars come from. They was made from clouds that collapsed down due to gravity. Now where did the cloud come from? To keep from getting to complex, I will say that it came from the big bang. When that happened matter and anti-matter was formed but not in equal parts. If it did nothing would be here. what you see is literally what is left over from the big bang. Now of course you can ask what caused the big bang. Some said it could be plains merging in a different dimension. I’m not saying that is what it is but for my point here lets say its true. Now questions must still be asked. Where did the stuff that caused the big bang come from? Questioning things will never stop, I hope you see my point here. to find the truth about things around us we have to question everything. We have to ask the question find data, question to see if the data is correct, question if we received the data correctly and question the person that brought us the data and the tools they used. When we are satisfied that the above is correct then all we are left with is other questions. Even if we should find an equation that lets us know about everything we see “ the theory of everything” we will still have questions to ask. Especially if we find out that we can travel through time as easily as moving up and down a river. The question why, I don’t think will ever be answered.
Now you can contribute this to your god if you want to. But don’t you feel that you are cheating yourself? You may not, but that was thought of a long, long time ago. The idea of a god has been changed and rewritten some many times that it doesn’t hold water any more. There are over 6000 gods around the world. While man kills man because we don’t agree on which one is the correct god. I choose not to follow that line of thinking in my life any more. I would rather use logic in my life and logic doesn’t say to kill someone because they think differently than I do. Even if there was a being that was outside this universe then it doesn’t concern us. How can it? We can not get outside this universe. God might be your happy invisible friend that you think you will be with when you die. Fine. But when people start telling other people how to live because their invisible friend told them to do so, then that is wrong.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 22, 2007 23:08:18 GMT -5
This isn't about me. If I don't attribute it to my God then I do cheat myself. I grow very tired of just thinking about myself. It torments me. When I get into the me zone I am arrogant and suspicious of other. I find that I am never content with the way things are. I run myself crazy and do unwise things. I am much more at peace serving and living for my God. I don't choose the line of thinking that I should kill someone else because they have a different God. I don't choose not to believe in God because there are as you say over 6000. I know who He is and rest in that.
I would like to raise another couple of questions to you all. Is truth relative? Do you practice Taoism? What does it teach?
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Post by necroshine on Mar 23, 2007 5:58:14 GMT -5
Guerrilla no one said anything about our self. I find it odd that you would talk about thinking about yourself. Nothing about what snafui, godsareus or I said anything about thinking of ourselves. i would be lying if I said I was not selfish. But that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. When I said you are cheating yourself I was talking about the act of discovery. If you just sit back and say “god did it” what do you learn? Nothing. I enjoy the process of discovery. Where did the earth come from? How did the stars form? What happens when you break an atom apart? What is it made of? Is that made of something smaller? If yes then is that made up of something even smaller? So much to learn so many places to look. How large is the universe? How much stuff is in the universe? To just say god did it is cheating. No discovery at all. It goes against human nature to question and to learn.
When I start feeling selfish I think of my loved ones. I don’t have a lot of them but the few I have I hold close to me. I try to give them what I like and share what I have with them. But then I am selfish to a point, its just human I think.
If you want to say your god is true to you, its your truth. But don’t think about saying that it is the true god of us all. It is not my god or the god of two thirds of the earth. That is what causes war. I don’t practice Taoism so I will let snafui tell you about that. but this is my $0.02
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