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Post by vertigo on Sept 13, 2004 13:19:33 GMT -5
What do you mean the holiday is the celebration of the birth of Jesus, and should not be considered anything else? What about the customs of christmas trees and santa claus? Do you ignore those, or consider them less important?
Now realise that many people would consider the christian conception of the holiday less notable than the customs of christmas trees and santa claus. It is extremely pretentious to say that it should only be considered a celebration of Jesus's birth, because only christians celebrate that.
For others, it is a time to put up a christmas tree, exchange gifts and to be with family. Your religion is your business, you say. Leave other people their non-religion then.
Christmas is only a religious celebration to those who celebrate that. Jesus, if he ever lived, certainly wasn't born on christmas day, and this is well known. So to say that it 'shouldn't be considered any other way' is plainly stupid to me.
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Post by AuntieSocial on Sept 13, 2004 17:30:50 GMT -5
I know this was specifically addressed to vertigo, but I have a few comments (lol ... when don't I?) Firstly, at the risk of being not so welcomed at this site, I am not an atheist but a very happy Byzantine Christian who enjoys the Slavic celebrations of Easter, St. John's Day, the Dormition, St. Nicholas' Day, Christmas, St. Basil's Day (1 January), Theophany, etc. No need to feel that you are at risk of being unwelcomed here. All are welcome. The only thing that we ask is that you not proselytise. You can discuss your philosophies, and even your theology, as long as you (universal 'you') don't preach and seek to 'convert' any of the members here. I agree. Your belief is and should be personal. I, personally, have no problem with people having a belief (although I don't understand why they do), as long as they do not infringe on the lives of people of other faiths or no faith. Now it sounds as if you are refering to the Judaic faith when you say "...consider themselves exclusive, chosen flock..." However, the Jews do not think that all others will burn or suffer eternal torment in Hell. There is no concept of eternal torment/Hell in the Jewish faith. With respect to the beliefs, I don't really respect the beliefs themselves, but I respect those believers who do not attempt to convert me or condemn me or infringe on my rights as a human being. And as practiced in the Old Testament of the Bible? As for cannibalism, I believe that the Christian faith does practice a "ritualistic representation of cannibalism" when they take part in communion or the eucharist. What other term could you use for consuming a representation of the flesh and blood of your saviour? This is just a question, and I mean no offense by it, however, I have often wondered about the very fine line between the sacrifices made by the ancient tribes of South America (eating a proxy of their saviour) and those done symbolically by Christians. I agree. Atheists (and I dont think I am over reaching my bounds by generalizing here) don't believe in an afterlife, this is the only life we have. Many of us also believe in making the lives of all people be the best that it can be through humanistic endeavours, including petitioning our governments to uphold secular laws so that all individuals can have equality. I think that it should just be a winter break for students and workers. This will allows each individual to assign their own belief to the break. I do not acknowledge it as anything other than a few days to recouperate and regroup my thoughts. I might also reflect on the past year. Well, I disagree. You, as a Christian, believe it to be the celebration of the birth of Christ. Myself, as an atheist and a person who, like you, has studied mythology, apply no significance to the occassion. I can see that many cultures have a 'religious' celebration around that time of year, including the three major monotheistic religions. I also see that many of the pre-existing pagan cultures had a religious festival around the winter solstace. Again, I disagree. I personally feel that faith is something that is personal. It has no place outside of the home and church/temple/synagogue/etc. of the believer. The only sure way to ensure equality for all students is to have none of the religions represented on public property. I don't think that it will come to the point of restricting the arts. Monuments in public buildings/displays on public land lend a validity to the belief that should not be made by public officials or school officials, even if they share the belief. When an individual agrees to represent the populating in a public capacity, they have agreed to uphold the rights of all citizens. Projecting their own religious beliefs in an official manner counters that imparative. Agreed. However, you have to understand that the war in Iraq really has nothing to do with religion or terrorism. There has never been a substantiated link between Housein and Bin Laden. No WMD have been located. This is a war for political and financial gain. Israel obtains the political gain, the Halliburton Corp. and Carlysle Group obtain the financial gain. While I agree that the Taliban (in Afghanistan) and Housein were horrendous leaders who ruled through tyranny, I do not agree with the wars. All other means had not yet been exhausted. Afghanistan is now on the verge of another civil war and the Iraqi people are far from being liberated (which was never the intent anyway). The death toll in Iraq is somewhere between 11,000 and 13,500 civilians and over 1,000 American troops (not to mention the other countries in the coalition). While some would say that George W. Bush, his administration and the neo conservatives they represent hate muslims, the reality is they have long-standing business relationships with the Saudi royal family and the Bin Laden family, among others, all of whom are muslim. My political views may seem anti-american, and so be it. I am not anti-american at all. I am a Canadian who sees the total lack of regard for sovereign nations when there is something to be gained. I have to wonder how far the current administration in the US is willing to go in their quest for oil. How many lies and misleading half-truths are they willing to tell their people, the UN and the world to garner support and justify their blatent disrespect for another country's rights to their natural resources and life? How many American lives are they willing to put in peril (both domestically and in combat) to reach their objectives? *Gets off her soapbox and goes back to her corner* Pssst ... you forgot the atheists ... *giggles*
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Post by slavsoul on Sept 15, 2004 0:43:43 GMT -5
Hello, Vertigo: Do I respect dishonest and senseless views? Hmmm, I thought that I had stated my opposition to silly shenanigans, such as those spoofed on the South Park show when I implied that my respect is conditional "so long as..." When it comes to beliefs, (dis)honesty and (non)sense are in the mind of the true believer. Did an angel truly appear to Mohammed and Joseph Smith and reveal the TRUTH? Did a divine being request that all eight-day old male boys have the foreskin ritually chopped off to make a covenant with said divine being (what the hell does the divine being do with all those mangled scraps of flesh? make suitcases)? Does a divine being really want married women to shave their heads and cover them with a wig (how silly!)? Why would any divine being want females to walk about with babushkas on their heads and their arms and legs covered in 90 degree weather while the males of that same religion stroll about in short sleeves and shorts? And why would a divine being want adherents to not eat pork or shellfish or beef or whatever? Gadzooks! I find all the above and all similar beliefs or traditions or whatever they are senseless (circumsion, by the way, is rejected by sensible Jews who do not want to see their newborn son mutilated, traumatized and screaming in pain, nor is there any "hygienical" reason for it, see all the websites). But then, that is my opinion, and I refrain from telling my pretty young Muslim female students to take off those silly headcoverings, nor do I try do get Muslims to drink alcohol, nor do I offer practicing Jews a BLT or yummy cheese and meat lasagna. That is the "respect" part. Also, I do not want to get my posterior kicked. Just a matter of survival and good manners. All in all, the above mentioned are fairly harmless, while the apocolyptical Christians who are ruling our country bother me. Never in my life have I felt threatened by the government as I do in these times. Now to answer "Master of the Name Sun." Where am I from? If you mean my ethnic origin, I am Ukrainian, although I was born in WWII Nazi-occupied Poland and wound up languishing in refugee camps in Germany until we made it to the US in 1950. Ever hear of Hamtramck? That is where I grew up, now I teach French, Spanish and Latin at the University of Michigan-Dearborn. Thanks for your interest, and may Ra bless you with many sunny rays.
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Post by slavsoul on Sept 15, 2004 1:41:50 GMT -5
Hello, Vertigo: Well, I may be stupid, but I strongly suspect that Jesus was a historical being, since he is mentioned by the Roman historians and the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, whose writings are availabe in translation. But then they might have been stupid as well. We do not know when or where Yeshua ben Yussuf was born and the date was chosen by the church to coincide with the winter solstice celebrations that peoples everywhere celebrate. My people sang special songs, decorated the homes with winter greenery and hay, ate special food designed to celebrate dead ancestors, lit many fires to bring back the sun (the Scandinavians lit a huge log called the "yule" [wheel] of the sun, also meant to bring back the sun, while the French of today prefer to make a tasty pastry "log" of chocolate called "la buche de Noel"--such gourmets!). They also dressed up in animal masks and went from home to home singing songs of good wishes for the coming year, scattered grains and nuts on the floor and received money, drinks, food and other gifts for their cheery chirpings. We sing many of the same songs, drink and eat a lot, leave out the special food of the dead for our ancestors. All this is connected with the birth of the chosen deity of the majority of the folks of my nation. We can accomodate him, why not? These are the times of J.C., we have fun, some actually believe. We never had Santa Claus, because that version of St. Nicholas is from the Netherlands. We have December 6 as the day of St. Nicholas. And the Christmas tree was introduced to Great Britain via Prince Albert in H. M. Queen Victoria's time. Every nation has its own traditions associated with the solstice, but the majority of the world sees this holiday as primarily the celebration of the birthday of J.C. Even Jews know this, and, unhappily, some have said that they feel very uncomfortable with the public displays and playing carols ( count me in with them, since I hate piped in carols and Christmas decorations in stores staring in October). So it would be very difficult to persuade people that we are really celebrating a meteorological phenomenon, although we are. How many individuals do you know who would agree that Christmas is not the celebration of J.C.'s birthday? You do not have to believe in J.C. or Santa Claus or the Magi or la Befana, you can be a theist, a theosophist, an agnostic, whatever, nor are you saying that J.C. ever existed when you say that Christmas is in name, officially, the celebration of someone named J.C. To do anything else would be to deny the facts that Christmas is associated with J.C. despite the truth about its origins.
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Post by slavsoul on Sept 15, 2004 2:25:51 GMT -5
Thank you for the welcome, Auntie Social. Some comments: the reference to the "exclusive chosen flock who will sit at the right hand of God" targets the born-again apocalyptic Christians, who see themselves as the supplanters of the Jews. I am thinking specifically of those maniacal preachers with flaming eyes who condemn all those who have not been washed in the blood of the Lamb to a painful eternity of flames (although Jewish thought of the New Testament mentions a place of punishment for sinners where they will suffer for 12 months to eternity, depending on the crime, I suppose: "the pit of torment shall appear...and the furnace of gehenna [hell] shall be disclosed." Ezra Apocalypse, vii, [36]). Re the cannibalistic transubstantiation, I doubt if anyone tastes real flesh and blood when taking the bread (or wafer) and wine. It is also a symbolic way of rejecting real cannibalism and animal sacrifice, which is actually an evolution in religious practices. Interestingly, the ancient Romans believed that the Christians were literally killing humans and feasting on their bodily parts and blood, so that is one reason why they persecuted them. I know that nonbelievers find all this very disgusting and silly. Yuk and yuk-yuk! As for Christmas not being the "birthday" of JC, well of course it is not! But that is still when this putative birth is celebrated. It is like the celebration of H.M. Queen Elizabeth's birthday in June (better weather?) than on 21 April, the actual date. So many people cherish Christmas and so used to its being associated with JC's birth that it would be cruel and impractical to try to abolish all references to it as Christmas. I do have wiccan friends who wish me joyous solstice and I answer back, why not? They cannot convert me and I have no wish to convert them, they are so happy with their holly and mistletoe and burning wheels of the sun god. Moreover, art, music, food, drink, customs, have been inspired by this celebration of the birth of a sweet little baby who brings us dreams of peace and joy. I am waxing sentimental! Re displays of religious greetings on university grounds, well, no one has ever been offended or objected, we are a small school, everyone learns something, and we tell each other to have a happy Ramadan, Shana Tova, Divali, Passover, Christmas, Easter... It is freedom of speech, we are not afraid to mention a religious holiday or even let students have a day off to celebrate. Re the support of a racist state which is one of the reasons for war: OBL himself wrote in one of his messages that the 11 September attacks were revenge for the deaths of Palestinians and other Arabs and/or Muslims which were sanctioned by US policy in the Middle East. Even though many argue that the existence of Israel has nothing to do with Muslim hostility against the West (Daniel Pipes and others keep clamoring that they hate our way of life, our freedom and wish to destroy us because that is how they are and their religion teaches hatred for infidels, etc.), I strongly suspect that maybe, just maybe (HA, HA!), Uncle Sam's blind, 100% unconditional support of Israel might have something to do with US's unpopularity among the resteless natives over there. The strongest link is between the apocalyptic neocon Christians and the existence of the state of Israel so that the joyous Armageddon battle might take place. Remember that G.W. referred to the war upon terror as a "crusade" right after 11 September (that was not repeated again) and we all know that GW is "guided" by "God." Yes, GW does not hate all Muslims (he has often referred to Islam as a great religion of peace, etc., but...) and has to support the Saudi clan et al. to keep the oil cows flowing, so the US is not out to wage war against the entire Muslim population, but the US was actually hinting about invading Syria, since that is where the WMD had been spirited away (Wolfowitz was licking his chops and Perle spoke of it as a fait accompli). That was quickly hushed up, especially after the welcome that the US troops received. What happened to all those flowers and candy and cheering Iraquis? And there is a constant fanning of the flames of hatred against Islam. Did you hear Giuliani's speech at the Republican convention? Individuals like Daniel Pipes are lionized as the final authorities on Islam and university professors involved in Middle Eastern Studies are monitored. Pipes has a special website where you can report any unamerican activities performed by those suspected academics. Big Brother. Well, I have to correct some French compositions and get ready to see my Muslims tomorrow, inshallah! And how could I omit atheists in list of beloved others? I am married to one.
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Post by slavsoul on Sept 15, 2004 2:47:05 GMT -5
Dear Auntie Social: I wish to clarify that I did not mean that the WMD were really spirited away to Syria, but that that was mentioned in the early days of the invasion as being most probable (since no weapons were found lying all over the place) and there were sabre-rattlers who spoke of invading Syria and possibly Iran. Clean them all up in one fell swoop! And of course, Saddam loathes OSB and vice versa, so that connection is nonexistent, I know, but that does not stop the majority of the yahoo populace from believing that all Iraquis and probably all Arabs and Persians (whom most Americans believe to be Arabs, there is actually a website where an Iranian begs for visitors to spread the word that Persians are not Arabs, etc.) were involved in the terrorist attacks on 11 Sept, so they should all be killed, and so far, the US and its allies are making good progress.
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Post by vertigo on Sept 15, 2004 13:17:06 GMT -5
Where the name comes from is superficial. Christmas needn't be though of as time to celebrate JC's life. It can equally be thought of as a holiday festival where you put up a Christmas tree and exchange gifts.
Now, that this Yeshua existed I don't doubt, but if he wasn't the Messiah who performed miracles he is sufficiently not the Jesus in the Bible, whose birth christians celebrate. That is what I meant when I said 'if he even existed'. Christians celebrate the birth of a conception that is not based in reality.
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Post by slavsoul on Sept 17, 2004 15:01:58 GMT -5
vertigo: when I say that Christmas is technically the celebration of the birth of JC or Yeshua, whether historical or not is a moot point, since the existence of this holiday is due to its being designated as such. Now, individuals who prefer to think of this celebration, as so many do, as a time of peace, rest, family togetherness, jingle bells, reindeer, etc., can certainly do so, but that cannot change the original meaning of the name and holiday. Originally, there was no such holiday in the US, since the Puritans abhorred any such "pagan" celebrations, not to mention the orgiastic accompaniments which were its hallmark in the Merry Old England which they had fled due to Christmas' association with the winter solstice feasting and merriment. This holiday became official in the 19th century, and since then has picked up many traditions, including the fir tree, a German tradition (another pagan custom which was pegged onto the celebration of JC's "birthday" via Queen Victoria's husband and which then spread all over, since it is so pretty). But if the US had never instituted the holiday of "Christmas," would we then be celebrating "winter solstice," which in itself is rooted in the belief that the invincible sun (also associated with the worship of Mithras, which influenced Christian beliefs about JC) is "reborn" after the menace of evil forces that would destroy it? To make an analogy, there are some who celebrate the fourth of July without a thought to its origin--it is a summer feast of barbecue and fireworks. But not thinking about the reason for the fourth does not negate the fact that the holiday was originally established to celebrate the signing of the Declaration of Independence. And Valentine's day was established to honor a Christian martyr named Valentine. The holiday has since evolved into a day of Cupids, flowers, greeting cards, romantic dinners, kissing and hugging (again, the saint's feast was tacked onto the ancient Roman Lupercalia, which had to do with fertility rites, etc., since that is the season when wolves and dogs mate--how romantic!). and because this feast was associated with a Christian saint, it has survived. So, as Galileo said, "e pur, si muove." Saying that christmas has nothing to do with Christ's birthday does not alter the fact that it was instituted formally with just that in mind.
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Post by vertigo on Sept 17, 2004 19:59:47 GMT -5
What instituted it doesn't determine what it means to people. It is a holiday with the name Christmas. Now to me it is convention to refer to this time of year as Christmas time, and I don't that calling it that need have anything to do with JC's birthday. It is a name, a symbol that is used, and I don't think it need carry the original purpose, if people don't think of it that way.
What the original purpose was is not at all important to me. I think of Christmas as I think of it, not as people of ages past thought of it.
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Post by slavsoul on Sept 19, 2004 16:38:52 GMT -5
excellent, now for a little Christmas story, and then I promise to drop the discussion of the true meaning of X(first letter of Greek name "Xpistos" [approximating Greek alphabet!] , in English transcribed as "chi," a very guttural sound, and used to stand for "Christos")mas.
Mr. Abe Goldstein is very upset. The Christmas season has begun and his children are begging for a Christmas tree because "everyone else has one." Abe is adamant: "We are NOT Christians, we do not celebrate Christ's birth, NO!" The kids are now crying and pleading desperately. When their little Christian friends drop in, what will they think? A house with no Christmas tree at Christimas! "NO," yells Abe as he goes off to work. Later that day, when mom opens the door to let Abe in, lo and behold, in one hand he is holding a beautiful Douglas fir, in the other, a huge bag of ornaments and lights. The kids are ecstatic. "Oh, papa, thank you for the Christmas tree." Abe retorts with a stern but not unkindly look: "Kids, this is NOT a Christmas tree, it's a Hannukah bush."
Speaking of Bush, I wonder why the issue of peace in Israel and Palestline is dead in the news. Maybe Armageddon is just around the corner?
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