|
Post by Maverick on Mar 8, 2004 19:39:58 GMT -5
It has come to my attention that one of the members of our message board, JohnGalt, has set up an atheist chat room in the past couple of weeks. Without being too specific, the chat room JohnGalt set up is an alternative to another atheist chat room where friction existed over the ways things were moderated. Some of the users who now chat at JohnGalt’s alternative chat were people who chatted here at Atheists Anonymous (some more regularly than others). One of our current chat OPs, Yaw, has been invited to be a moderator at JohnGalt’s new chat room. As a result, Yaw sent me a private message indicating that Atheists Anonymous could work together with the new chat. Recently, I chatted with JohnGalt about how Atheists Anonymous could work together with him to build a strong chat community. JohnGalt has agreed to work with us and he asked me what we propose. I told him that I didn’t yet have a proposal and that I would want a little more time to discuss my options with the rest of you. There are three possible alternatives that I have come up with. If there are other alternative suggestions, please feel free to share them. If you have no other alternatives, I would still like to hear feedback on the three listed below. 1.) Our chat room could migrate and become a part of JohnGalt’s chat community. 2.) JohnGalt’s chat community could migrate to the Atheists Anonymous chat room. 3.) The two chat rooms could remain separate but work together in other ways. OPTION 1: A/ANON CHAT MIGRATIONIf we were to act upon this option, we would leave our IRC channel on the HomelessIRC network and join JohnGalt’s community, located here: irc.everywherechat.com:8000/login.htm (once you are signed in, type "/join #atheism” in the lobby). The advantages to this option is that the chat would be available to more users because it is on a bigger network than HomelessIRC. The atheist room on that network currently has more chatters logged in on a regular basis than our room does. Yaw would also serve as a liason between the chat and the A/Anon message board. The disadvantage is that we would have to break our relationship with HomelessIRC. HomelessIRC, though a small network, has been a relatively stable network and it has had virtually zero trolling problems. OPTION 2: GALT CHAT MIGRATIONWith this option, I would propose to JohnGalt that the chatters currently chatting at his room migrate here to A/Anon. As the channel OP, I would grant his current mods OP status in our chat and we would still retain the services of HomelessIRC (and still have Arutha to update us on the technical issues involved with the network). This would also make it easier for me to integrate their chatters with our message board. The disadvantage: we would still be on a small network which would present the same advertising problems we currently have. OPTION 3: REMAIN SEPARATE BUT SUPPORTIVEIf we act under this option, our chat rooms would remain separate but each community would freely advertise for one another and both communities would make use of our message board. (Currently, JohnGalt’s community lacks a message board.) We could also find other ways to advertise for each other and support each other in our causes (but we still would need to determine how we could accomplish such a goal separately). I would like to hear what the rest of you think about the options above or other alternatives I haven’t thought of yet. Also, JohnGalt (or anyone else), if there is something I said that needs to be clarified or corrected, please feel free to do so. What are everyone’s thoughts on this? How could we work together to build a stronger chat community?
|
|
|
Post by Arutha on Mar 8, 2004 22:02:21 GMT -5
Of course i advice on choice number 2 (is there any other way i myself could?) After checking it out, i have a couple comments about their servers (all of which are personal pet peeves) 1. Windows Server - Chatspace 2. I dont like the applet, 10 minutes after closing it a clone was still present 3. As far as i can tell there is not the relationship between the Admins's there as their is with Us, I personally feel it gives you more safety and control, you can contact us if you feel there is a problem 4. HomelessIRC Admins are atheists 5. It (at the time i checked) is a server and not a network, that means no netsplits that we occasionally have, but also means if one goes down no chatters can access any servers to continue.. 6. we now have an aus server (for all one australians (me) chatting in #atheist) On that note however, my ISP has router issues, over the past week making me loose sync with the vancouver server on average every 2 days, they are working on fixing this so we can get a desirable link uptime, spose that last bit should be its own thing but it MAY be needed for a fair analysis
|
|
|
Post by Yaw on Mar 8, 2004 22:27:21 GMT -5
First of all, I just want to say that my involvement with the other chat room is due to my being a part of the former About.com chat group. Parts of that group in many ways were involved in getting this website up to where it is now, and with the chat rooms as a whole on About.com closing, that chat seems to be their new home. I am involved there independently, but since we have common roots, they are making us an offer here.
At any rate, my primary consideration is in terms of chat room popularity. Because everywherechat has at least 10 people regularly in their chat room every night (which is more than us) and over 100 more rooms for people to choose from on the same server, I think this offers us an advantage. I would, at minimum lean towards option 3, because hooking up with an existing, vibrant community that already shares members with us is to our advantage.
That said, I'm not sure 3 is practically workable. With two chats, one is bound to suffer from lack of participation, and to date, that's been our chat. Since the everywherechat just moved to that location, I don't know that they could be convinced to move again. I do prefer IRC from a technical standpoint, but I'd be willing to settle for lower (yet decent) technical standards for a good chatting community. I guess this means I fall somewhere between options 1 and 3, based on popularity considerations.
|
|
|
Post by Arutha on Mar 9, 2004 1:47:14 GMT -5
They are still IRC, its just that they promote their applet more it seems. I noticed that you yaw wernt using the applet,
|
|
|
Post by AuntieSocial on Mar 9, 2004 8:14:13 GMT -5
I haven't had the opportunity (yet) to visit the alternative chatroom. Actually, I haven't been on ours much leately either, however, Arutha brings up a very valid point with respect to the network admins. Having been an IRCop and Net-Admin before, it is of great benefit to have Net-Admins who are of the same mindset/tolerance as us. When I was an admin, I was the only network level admin or IRCop that was an atheist. I was continually reviewing bans and room-closures that were taken against atheists because of complaints of offensive behaviour. I can't really fault the Christians on staff, they were receiving a lot of complaints, but they weren't investigating the complaints as thoroughly as I would have liked. The vast majority of the "offensive behaviour" was that the individuals banned were questioning the Christians about their faith. I am seeing similar actions occurring on programs like PalTalk (which also has very few atheist (or atheist-sympathetic) admins). Is there an agreement in place between the room owners and the network staff/owners regarding the complaints investigation (complaints will happen, especially as the network grows). - What will the admins/IRCops consider to be offensive?
- What is their personal bias towards the subjects of god and atheists?
- Will atheists be free to move around the network without restrictions? Or will we be restricted to remaining in #atheist? I ask this last one because I know from PalTalk that I am labelled as an atheist anywhere I go, even when the room topic has nothing to do with religion. Even in political rooms or other rooms, people will bring religion into the conversation around me.
|
|
|
Post by Arutha on Mar 9, 2004 8:56:23 GMT -5
I should clarify though, User rooms are of their own desire, if they ban you thats their own choice, if you ban them once again your choice, we will only get involved in issues of user harassment that cannot be stoped by a mod or by simply ignoring them (this isnt avaliable to some so we will step in there) there are less of us, and there is less of a present userbase, but without support we cant grow, another group joining would be nice, however i noticed that the comment about 10 regular users is not correct (atleast not tonight) presently there is one user idling, and one user active... (me)
I have personally noticed a large number of people browsing into #atheist, and have tried to chat to as many as possible, but because not enough users that exist are coming back they dont feel like staying much, a couple have and come back on semi regular ocasions. I feel either way there needs to be a merger to create a larger chat.. i personally would like the merger to be our way to help with the network but the choice is yours.. and theirs.. however when in conversation.. if you do propose a merger out way point out the comments i posted above, and any concerns or queiries from their side you cannot answer i would be happy to answer.. personally i do not like microsoft services, nor do i like their server setup from what i can probe at from a regular user, but thats the admins personal choice
|
|
|
Post by Maverick on Mar 9, 2004 11:56:45 GMT -5
Here are my concerns about merging out of HomelessIRC:
Yes, right now, JohnGalt's chat has a larger number of chatters in the atheist chat room. (I have been in there both when there were ten other users and when there has been only one other.) However, from past experience with our room, I am skeptical of how long that chatting base will last. When the About.com group came to chat here at A/Anon, they did so regularly for a while but then the numbers began to drop. How can I be sure the same won't happen with the new chat?
Also, I think merging into our current chat would be beneficial to both chat communities for a variety of reasons. We already have an existing relationship with the network admins that I think is difficult to get on other, larger networks. If the new chat group were to come over here, we could pool our efforts more efficiently. I could give OP status to the mods of the new chat. By having more mods, we'd have more people to help advertise our room and keep it active.
Yaw
The chat community that gathered at MSN's Atheism & Freethought did it when they moved here to A/Anon. After moving here, we switched chat rooms several times (from using ParaChat, to CentralChat, to out current home on HomelessIRC). After making the move to HomelessIRC, I didn't want to make a move anywhere else without good reason because I didn't want to loose chatters to the confusion of switching networks again.
|
|
|
Post by Yaw on Mar 9, 2004 15:20:31 GMT -5
With respect to the room mods, all of them are agnostic/atheistic. There is currently a strong push for free speech (which was perceived to be lacking in the old about.com chat room), so the rules there conform to our own network policy with one exception (it's too large a chat space as a whole to effectively monitor whether one person registers more than one nick).
Arutha -- I was referring to night in the western hemisphere. Just so people aren't confused when reading our posts. You are correct in that there are probably fewer chatters during your nights (our mornings), but I think that is to be expected in most chat rooms.
Also as clarification, the room in HomelessIRC is #atheist, while the room in everywherechat is #atheism. Just so people don't get confused when trying to get into one or the other.
AuntieSocial -- People regularly play in the trivia room and haven't encountered any problems. I don't anticipate there being any, as it is too large a network for anyone to really keep tabs on who is in what room. (Besides which, everyone in #atheism isn't necessarily atheistic.)
The major difference between the migration that went through A/F to here and the migration now is that the previous one split the chat, while this one consists of virtually the entire chat moving. This means that everywherechat now has the chatter base from about.com's chat, rather than a small portion of it. Maverick is right in that it is hard to determine whether a chat will flourish or peter out, but everywherechat is large enough to offer the chatters more opportunities at present.
|
|
|
Post by AuntieSocial on Mar 9, 2004 17:18:41 GMT -5
Yaw, point taken with respect to being labelled in other rooms. I was making a point from my own experience on a MUCH larger network, PalTalk. When I go to the music and trivia rooms, I don't encounter the problems I do when I go to another discussion forum. I hope that individuals won't have the same experiences on whichever IRC decision we make.
Arutha, I understand what you mean about the User room ops having ultimate control of the rooms, and Yaw, I understand what you are saying about the room ops being agnostic/atheistic. Where I can foresee an advantage with HomelessIRC as compared to any other network is when the Network ops and/or admin are involved in a situation. From my experience, there are those people out there who just don't want to be bothered with atheists being around. If there is a problem with a user in our room that requires network level attention, are we going to receive timely attention? On larger networks, and I'm not sure that I would consider this other network to be large, it comes in handy having people around who not only appreciate your presence, but also appreciate your positions.
|
|
|
Post by JohnGalt on Mar 9, 2004 17:52:26 GMT -5
First off, I am appreciative of Mavericks efforts in making an offer which has the potential to be beneficial towards all of us. Due mostly to the fact that this site has a Forum or message base, I'm not of the opinion that it would be good to close this site down and migrate to my site. There remains with message bases like this a strong opportunity for more indepth discussions and dissemination of information than in chat alone. I am of the opinion that the most advantageous prospect for both our rooms is that my chat room advertises in the opening screen on log in the URL of the forum here. One of the advantages of everywherechat.com is the easy movement between chat rooms of other interests. It has the abilty by virtue of being among so many other chat rooms to attract others not specifically looking for atheism. I opt to keep the everywherechat.com room active and to promote Mavericks Forum for more serious and in depth discussions. I hope this is a satisfactory merging of the best of each of our sites. I look forward to such an arrangement.
|
|
|
Post by Yaw on Mar 9, 2004 19:10:08 GMT -5
To clarify, no matter what the consensus on this thread, the forum isn't going anywhere. The question is about what relationship our current chat room (on HomelessIRC) should have with the chat room at everywherechat.com.
I also hope that whatever arrangement we come up with would involve mutual advertising, so as to help both communities grow.
|
|
|
Post by nonny on Mar 10, 2004 1:25:04 GMT -5
I, personally, like the homeless.irc chat server. The owners, Hard-Format;Klos and Trin; Arutha, seem to be more aviable to help out with problems. I am on the server quite frequetly and some poeple have left this is true but some come back. Sherv, for instance, left but then came back a few times, he did tell me he didn't like the chat room because it was sometimes hard to get on to. But i also think the server is more um peaceful, for lack of a better word, because it is smaller. But it can get larger in number of poeple going there if we get poeple to go there.
And we do have new poeple comeing in latly but no one is ussally there to greet them. I try but i can't be in there all day. I think activity could grow if scheduled chats start. i'm more in favor of number 2 or 3. I agree with what Auntiesocial and Arutha has said. But also there is a possiblity with number 3 that one room will die down.
|
|
|
Post by Yaw on Mar 11, 2004 21:56:23 GMT -5
Another clarification -- everywherechat IS an IRC server, and hence is accessible through mIRC or other IRC clients, instead of the chatspace applet. I'm not exactly sure how yet, but I'll find out. At any rate, this means that we're comparing two servers with their respective communities, NOT the features of the applet with IRC.
And all of us would like to hear more from the board members about this. Please, feel free to try out both options and comment. The whole point of this thread is to be able to choose what is best for this community, and it is hard to do that without input.
|
|
|
Post by Maverick on Mar 11, 2004 23:27:32 GMT -5
One more clarification:
Yaw
The part of the Network Policy that prohibits the registration of multiple nicknames applies to this message board (not the chat room). Since we don't deal with the registration of nicknames on HomelessIRC, it would be useless to prohibit what we can't control.
There is a rule, however, that users cannot log into our specific atheist room with a nick that imitates another user. (Example: Someone logs in as Maverickk) This rule is meant to prevent users from becoming abusive toward other users. We can monitor this in our specific room. (Though, I am willing to be lenient until such abuse becomes a persistent problem, which it hasn't yet.)
I agree with Yaw -- I would like to hear more from the rest of this community. I will try, sometime within the next couple of weeks, to send a newsletter notice to my A/Anon Insider subscribers pointing them to this thread. Also, JohnGalt, if any of the users currently chatting in your room have any comments, please encourge them to register here so they can share their comments with us.
|
|
|
Post by Arutha on Mar 12, 2004 0:57:05 GMT -5
One more clarification: YawThe part of the Network Policy that prohibits the registration of multiple nicknames applies to this message board (not the chat room). Since we don't deal with the registration of nicknames on HomelessIRC, it would be useless to prohibit what we can't control. There is a rule, however, that users cannot log into our specific atheist room with a nick that imitates another user. (Example: Someone logs in as Maverickk) This rule is meant to prevent users from becoming abusive toward other users. We can monitor this in our specific room. (Though, I am willing to be lenient until such abuse becomes a persistent problem, which it hasn't yet.) I agree with Yaw -- I would like to hear more from the rest of this community. I will try, sometime within the next couple of weeks, to send a newsletter notice to my A/Anon Insider subscribers pointing them to this thread. Also, JohnGalt, if any of the users currently chatting in your room have any comments, please encourge them to register here so they can share their comments with us. The immitation rule is covered by us and no doubt the other Network as well
|
|