Retail dishonesty

[vertigo]

A movie is short lived. You watch it for 2 hours or so, and that's the end. If the movie is no good, it will get bad reviews, and people won't watch it. If you read the reviews you can have some confidence that you know what the movie is going to be like.

And yet there isn't really much variety in movies. For me, I've come to expect it, that movies will be mediocre. Storylines are sidelined for special effects, big name actors are badly cast, some can't act (Brad Pitt), etc. Movies like Mission Impossible II are liked by vast numbers of people. It's truly sad.

And yet, it's only a movie, nothing to get riled up about. You watch it and it's done.

Unfortunately, I have noticed a different but similar trend lately, although the evidence was there for quite a long time. Like the trend of diminishing quality in movies, I have noticed a trend of diminishing quality in retail products.

Now I don't mean that junk you see on TV, "Ginsu XXX 2005 XP Knife set", etc. What I'm talking about is wide ranging phenomenon. It concerns three items I bought recently.

I bought a computer chair recently. I looked online, found a nice store, and applied to be sent the catalogue. I wanted a nicely adjustable chair. The catalogue came, I picked out the chair, etc. So, I go online to place the order, and in doing so I find out the prices were exclusive of VAT, which is 17.5%.

That throws my budget nicely out of whack. I examined the front page of the catalogue again, and there in writing so small no human should be expected to be able to read it, I see "All prices exclude VAT". How nice.

Anyway, I ordered the chair. It arrived in a few days. So I open the box to assemble the chair, and to my surprise there were no instructions. Also, the arms were only partially assembled, parts were missing. How nice.

Anyway, I assembled the chair, although it took a while to work out exactly how it went together. I notified the company that the top portion of the arms were not in the box, also no instructions were given. I was told they would make a service call.

So the van arrives in a few days, without the arm parts I need. Oh, they thought I needed help assembling the chair (not what I asked for, asked for arm parts). Oh, how nice. They'll come again.

Anyway, eventually I got the arms. Now I have seen many of these chairs before where the back has worn out and doesn't support the operator anymore. If they can send people to the moon I would think they can stop a chair back wearing out. I mean, I remember from my primary school days chairs using metal piping that couldn't bend at all. It's not rocket science.

Well, when I assembled the chair I saw that the metal bar that attaches the back to the base is not a cylinder or a square, but more like a squashed ellipse.

Think of an egg. An egg is in the shape of an ellipse. It's easy to squash the egg in the direction of the minor axis (where it's thinnest), but very difficult to squash the egg in the direction of the major axis (where it's thickest). The minor axis of the ellipsoid metal bar supports the back of the chair, and must withstand the weight of the operator against it. The major axis, which can surely withstand a great amount of force, would stop the back of the chair from bending sideways. The support is in the wrong direction. Gee, how nice.

That was the one item. Some time after that I bought a Plantronics headset with microphone, worth £30. I would expect it to be good. Well, it worked for 3 weeks, but the mic went on the blink. The noise cancellation of the mic seems to be acting up. I tried it on a different machine, it did the same thing.

Then suddenly, it started working again, later that day. Unfortunately, today it went on the blink again. I will see about returning it. But what was interesting to me, this headset from a supposedly reputable manufacturer, has wires so thin a spider would be envious. I mean, it has a fancy directional electret noise-cancelling microphone. You'd think they could throw in wires more than 0.5mm in diameter.

Or look at razor blades. You get 4-bladed razors, with guard wires and lubricating strip. You pay through your neck for the stuff. And yet, for all the fancy technology, they don't last any longer. I have to buy new ones all the time. Gee, how nice.

I think you can see the trend here. The producers are not merely neglectful, they are downright malicious. This stuff is designed to break. This bogus metal bar on the chair is designed to bend and become deformed. The tiny wires are designed to break. The razor is designed to wear out quickly.

And you know what? It's nothing new. And if you become wise to this trend, you end up not wanting to spend money on a 'reputable' item, because they really aren't.

So I bought a fan very recently. I wasn't going to spend much money. I bought the cheapest 16" fan I could find. I was interested to see the quality of it. Well, it has three speed settings, but #1 is far to fast, and #2 and #3 are virtually the same as #1. It might as well only have on/off. Also, the fan is entirely plastic, and not rigid plastic. Only the motor is metal. The blades were not at all balanced, I had to balance them myself.

But you know what? I did that, I balanced them, etc, and I have a fan that blows air. I don't regret buying the cheap fan, because I know a more expensive one would have given me no more value. I have become wise to this bogus trend, my money is going to be much more wisely spent from now on.

That means disposable razors, tinpot headsets, plastic chairs, whatever it takes. I won't be a sucker for these retailers anymore. I've had enough.

[GodsAreUs]

I agree. Workers understandably have no pride in what they do. Manufacturers do everything on the cheap, jack up the price, and pass this crap on to us.

I blame Wal-Mart. Do you have any of those where you live?

They have forced manufacturers to provide cheap products. That drags a lot of other manufacturers down as well. Hell, they end up not having a choice. It’s either “do it cheap or not at all.” It’s a goddamn shame.

[twobirds]

It has always been "buyer beware". You have to shop around and seeing a product in person is what counts. Buying online you never know. There are manufacturers that do take pride in there products, you just have to find them. Sometimes you have to pay more but "you get what you pay for".

[Dragon*of*Heaven]

This trend is true but not only in the usual markets. Recently I was with a friend who had had surgery on their ankle. She asked me to help her get to therapy so I went along. Now I used to work with a laboratory supply company and one of my parents still dose. Any who the point is that I know how much the things doctors use costs.

They went to give her a walking cast to use and it was a good product made out of a strong plastic material cushioning and Velcro. Point is its a good cheep product that dose its job. This product sells from the company for about 30 dollars. Well when looking at the bill. This product was marked up not to $60 or even $100. No it was marked up to $600. That is a 20% increase. Which the insurance will pay because it is essayer than dealing with lawyers. Every one knows this is not good for business when you have a competitor. Unfortunately the Business world of doctors offices and hospitals are not competitive in that fashion.

Basically how it works is that you have a manufacturer who produces the product.(In-case of our boot some where in the vicinity of 10 to 20 dollars.) They run this though a manufacturer rep who goes to the hospitals and doctors offices to get them to take the product on. Then the manufacture rep gives them a list of sales reps from a distribution company. ( The distribution company buys the product from the manufacture to sell to a hospital.) Ok now the hospital buys from the sales company. This is how a product that is sold from the manufacture at about 15 goes to 30.

Ok now the hospital marks up the price to what ever the hell they feel like. Because they know that most people don't have a bloody clue what it actually costs. And further more the insurance company's don't give a damn. BTW the same works with shoes and other products. Only in the medical world it is easier to screw people who don't have a clue and because the insurance is involved they make money off the people though the mark up by raising their rates. This is why we get screwed

[vertigo]

Workers understandably have no pride in what they do. Manufacturers do everything on the cheap, jack up the price, and pass this crap on to us.

I am not talking about errors introduced by shoddy workmanship or manufacturer cost saving measures. I am talking about sabotage. The manufacturers sabotage the products. They intentionally use bad designs so that customers will buy more readily. We customers are just so used to it because everything is badly designed.

Shoes are a good example. You can't find a shoe lately that will last you for 3 years or more. It's not a coincidence. I spent money on expensive shoes once, <name hidden>. They only lasted 2 years. I might as well buy shoes for half the price, which will probably last longer.

If you are foolish enough to buy into the scam, you end up being hopelessly fooled. Look at speaker wire. Go into any pro-audio shop and tell them you want quality speaker wire, and see what they charge you. Then try to convince yourself that you get what you pay for.

Look at computer speakers, especially the overblown surround versions. They don't produce nice sound. You buy them because they look smart in the shop, you get it and it doesn't sound that great, but you don't question it, you just accept it.

It can happen that there are gems in amongst the rubbish; usually this is because there is a passionate individual driving it, and they care about the quality of the stuff they produce. They are few and far between.

I blame Wal-Mart. Do you have any of those where you live?

No, we don't have them here, but we have Asda which is 'part of the Wal-mart group'. Anyway, why do you blame them? Supposedly they are one of the primary employers of americans workers, and getting cheaper stuff is good for consumers, competition lowers prices. The problem is that all the competitors are in cohoots. They know everyone will produce the same low quality junk, so they don't have to worry, they just go along.

The reason for that is that we consumers are so used to it we don't see it happening. We buy bad product after bad product and don't notice the trend.

Only in the medical world it is easier to screw people who don't have a clue and because the insurance is involved they make money off the people though the mark up by raising their rates.

Exactly. Insurance companies are the biggest culprits. One way to know that insurance is lucrative is just to notice how many insurance companies there are. People buy insurance because they don't have money, and that's because they are buying 'reputable' stuff that isn't. They are getting screwed and they don't see it.

I don't know if you've noticed those 'buy issue 1 at the reduced price of XXX' type deals. Usually is some DIY type subject that people would be likely to want to know about. The ploy there is that they never tell you how many issues there are. You buy into it thinking it is a good purchase, when meanwhile you get screwed royally.

My sister bought one of those things, <name hidden>. With the money she spent by the time it finished she could have bought 20 cooking books.

Edit: Let me not be defamatory. It's no one perpetrator anyhow, they're all doing it.

[vertigo]

And let me say, concerning Wal-mart, I don't really know anything about them, but I do know about McDonalds and their low quality food, but they are more open about it.

They don't try to make it sound reputable. At least they are slightly more honest.

[GodsAreUs]

vertigo said:

I am not talking about errors introduced by shoddy workmanship or manufacturer cost saving measures. I am talking about sabotage. The manufacturers sabotage the products. They intentionally use bad designs so that customers will buy more readily. We customers are just so used to it because everything is badly designed.

Sure sure, but are not cost-saving measures intentional? The common by-product of that is reduced quality of workmanship. If you’re talking sabotage, you’re talking conspiracy. I think it’s much simpler and less pre-meditated than that. If you want to stay viable in an increasingly competitive marketplace, you have to cut costs. That eventually affects the quality of what we buy. Your story about the shoddy chair is a good example. So the company laid a bunch of people off to cut costs and now the poor bastard who gets to pack your box has been working 12-hour days and is pressed to continually increase his productivity. At some point, his quality of work will suffer.

Look at speaker wire. Go into any pro-audio shop and tell them you want quality speaker wire, and see what they charge you. Then try to convince yourself that you get what you pay for.
Look at computer speakers, especially the overblown surround versions. They don't produce nice sound. You buy them because they look smart in the shop, you get it and it doesn't sound that great, but you don't question it, you just accept it.

You’re dead on here, and you don’t always get what you pay for. Any cable that’s running digital signals (like a DVI or HDMI cable for HDTV) can be of any quality as long as there’s a continuous connection from one end to the other. I agree that too often we accept crap for what it is… but that’s also a symptom of ever-cheaper products. Back in the 80s, a good set of speakers cost at least 1000$ U.S., but most folks don’t want to spend that much. And the makers, of course, bow to their wishes… with less quality.

Anyway, why do you blame them [Wal-Mart]? Supposedly they are one of the primary employers of americans workers, and getting cheaper stuff is good for consumers, competition lowers prices. The problem is that all the competitors are in cohoots. They know everyone will produce the same low quality junk, so they don't have to worry, they just go along.

Wal-Mart is the largest employer in the U.S., but their practice is unsustainable. Their pay is low enough that many of their employees can’t afford to buy what they sell. The corporate leaders will offer ultimatums to manufacturers that if they can’t meet Wal-Mart’s desired wholesale price, they either go elsewhere or integrate vertically and manufacture the product themselves. This is bad for folks who work in manufacturing and have to shop at Wal-Mart because they can’t afford to shop elsewhere. By doing this, they could be shopping their way out of a job if the folks they work for don’t do business with Wal-Mart. Another problem I have with the retail behemoths is they tend to force better quality manufacturers out of business, or force them into making cheaper-quality products. Levi’s jeans are a prime example. To meet Wal-Mart’s desired cost, they shut down every U.S. manufacturer and moved all of that overseas. And the quality of Levis is crap compared with 10 years ago.
Sorry, don’t get me started on this. Look here: www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html for an interesting third-party article.

The reason for that is that we consumers are so used to it we don't see it happening. We buy bad product after bad product and don't notice the trend.

Yea, don’t notice or don’t care. If that’s all you have access too, what choice do we have?

[vertigo]

So the company laid a bunch of people off to cut costs and now the poor bastard who gets to pack your box has been working 12-hour days and is pressed to continually increase his productivity. At some point, his quality of work will suffer.

Well the reason a company lays staff off is because the staff are being paid more money than they're worth. If the person is 'forced' to work 12-hour days it's because that's the amount of his labour worth his salary. If he chooses to accept a smaller salary, he can then work shorter hours.

Cheaper prices come at a cost, cheaper labour. If you (the consumer) are prepared to pay what your labour is worth, that's fine. But if the whole of the USA shops at Wal-Mart, buying the fruits of cheaper labour than they themselves sell, obviously their labour will need to decrease in value to suit.

What I'm talking about is not that. I am saying that products are deliberately designed to be fragile. The specific design of that supporting bar on the chair makes the chair fragile. I imagine it cost them more to have those bars made in the shape they had.

You buy a product because it can fulfill a need. So the manufacturers try to make the product cater to your needs. And while the product will cater for your needs, it won't cater to them for long, because the manufacturers want you to buy new ones all the time. That's where they get you, with the longevity of the item. So it could happen (and does) that you pay more for a 'reputable' product, when actually it isn't reputable at all.

Shoes are specifically like this. The 'reputable' shoes are comfortable, fancy looking, etc, but they don't last long at all. This is not because of shoddy workmanship, the items are designed this way.

There are two reasons for this: it is more difficult to judge how long an item will last than to judge how it looks, for instance, and people have short memories. If you think back to an item you had, you are more likely to remember how good it was than how long it lasted. When you use less reputable items, you will be reminded how much nicer the other items were.

And when you give in and buy the more expensive item, the last thing you think about is how much it will cost you over time. This is exactly the reason those '1 issue per week' deals are so successful. You buy the issue each week, never thinking how much it will cost over time. They don't tell you how many how issues there are, anyhow. If you add up what you end up paying it turns out to be vastly more than you would have expected, and surely vastly more than you would have paid for all the issues upfront.

What we as consumers have to learn is to evaluate cost over time. A headset with a flimsy cord is likely to not last long. It could happen that a less functional headset with a better cord would be more worthwhile. The manufacturers know this, which is why products are so flashy. If the product looks smart we consumers are more likely to think it will last a long time. It's subterfuge on the part of the manufacturers.

Look at cell phones, how many new models come out every year. A new model comes out with some bogus feature, like a camera, and suddenly it's all the rage. Consumers may realise it is happening, but I don't think we realise that it is deliberate. They are playing us for fools.

Well, some would say you can't blame the manufacturers, they are only out to make money. If consumers spend their money stupidly that's their fault. Well, whoever's fault it is, I am wise to it.

More than ever, I am going to factor in the longevity of an item, how long I expect it to last. If needs be, I will buy less functional products because they will last a longer time. The longevity of a product forms part of it's value, and therefore must be taken into consideration when deciding if the price is right. The price is just an amount, what isn't written is how much time that price buys you. That's what you have to work out for yourself.

This is nothing new, I just didn't realise the scope of it until now. I thought I was buying wisely, etc, in what I did, but I was gullible too. Hopefully I am less so now.

If that’s all you have access too, what choice do we have?

We can choose not to be fooled, not to trade our hard labour for their rubbish. Banks are a good example. We can choose not to use them, or to change to a different bank when their service doesn't suit.

We can be wise to what we are paying for, and whether it is valuable.

[GodsAreUs]

vertigo said:

Well the reason a company lays staff off is because the staff are being paid more money than they're worth. If the person is 'forced' to work 12-hour days it's because that's the amount of his labour worth his salary. If he chooses to accept a smaller salary, he can then work shorter hours.

That may work fine in the UK, but in the US it’s a little different. Unless you are in a position to ascertain the ‘worth’ of an employee’s labor, how can you assume the salary/labor ratio is fair? What would you use as a benchmark to make such a determination? Is it truly the wants of the employee weighed against the needs of the employer and the product’s ultimate demand in the marketplace? I think the underlying theme to what we’re both trying to get across here is greed. And here in the US, it’s the end-all and be-all of the economic system. There’s no honor, it’s all about profit.

What I'm talking about is not that. I am saying that products are deliberately designed to be fragile. The specific design of that supporting bar on the chair makes the chair fragile. I imagine it cost them more to have those bars made in the shape they had. You buy a product because it can fulfill a need. So the manufacturers try to make the product cater to your needs. And while the product will cater for your needs, it won't cater to them for long, because the manufacturers want you to buy new ones all the time. That's where they get you, with the longevity of the item. So it could happen (and does) that you pay more for a 'reputable' product, when actually it isn't reputable at all.

Sure, but that’s really nothing new. Planned obsolescence has been around for decades. It’s an unwritten rule among manufacturers to “do it well, but not too well.” I agree that you see more and more of it in the past. But a company won’t stay in business long if they waste money on shoddy design.

Look at cell phones, how many new models come out every year. A new model comes out with some bogus feature, like a camera, and suddenly it's all the rage. Consumers may realise it is happening, but I don't think we realise that it is deliberate. They are playing us for fools.

Buyer beware

This is nothing new, I just didn't realise the scope of it until now. I thought I was buying wisely, etc, in what I did, but I was gullible too. Hopefully I am less so now.

With the myriad of smart-looking products out there, this one’s tough. If you have a British version of Consumer Reports magazine, subscribe. It’s an excellent third-party source that constantly evaluates new products. Everything from functionality to reliability. You can also see their website here.

We can choose not to be fooled, not to trade our hard labour for their rubbish. Banks are a good example. We can choose not to use them, or to change to a different bank when their service doesn't suit.

We can be wise to what we are paying for, and whether it is valuable.

It all comes down to choice and educating yourself about what’s available. But when what’s available is crap, you are buying crap regardless of your convictions or choice to do otherwise. I think we all consume way too much as it is. Maybe if we stopped buying the crap altogether, they’d shape up and go back to making products like they did in the “good old days.”

[vertigo]

Unless you are in a position to ascertain the ‘worth’ of an employee’s labor, how can you assume the salary/labor ratio is fair?

Unfortunately, the onus is on the employee to fish around to see what other employers will pay for their labour. A more efficient business will be more likely to pay you fairly. Remember, people can't have it both ways, high salaries and cheap prices. Anyway, salaries are only high or low in relation to goods being sold. An influx of imports will only put people out of business if salaries refuse to drop. If the salaries drop you aren't poorer per sé, because you can buy the (now cheaper) produce. Well, that's the theory anyway. Employers tend to be reluctant to drop prices. That I entirely attribute to greed.

The way to combat it is not to buy stuff that is overpriced. Be vigilant and buy the best value items. Don't fall into common traps like taking mortgages to pay off bills or to go on holiday. You'll know what's overpriced because you know how hard you worked for your money.

You know what all you want to buy, and if you can't afford all of it you will only buy what you can afford, and the rest will have dwindling sales. We just have to become more wise to the common ploys.

But when what’s available is crap, you are buying crap regardless of your convictions or choice to do otherwise.

That's why you buy the best value crap you can find, or you make another plan. Perhaps you can find a cheaper way to do what you want to do, etc.

[GodsAreUs]

vertigo said:

That's why you buy the best value crap you can find, or you make another plan. Perhaps you can find a cheaper way to do what you want to do, etc.

I agree.

Maybe the best solution is to learn to do without. I’m not some freak saying we should give up our worldly possessions and wander off into the woods to find the “truth.” But it’s amazing how easy it is to accumulate large caches of stuff as one ages. My wife has a good strategy; she buys most of our furniture at garage and yard sales. If you find a woman selling off her divorced husband’s stuff, or an old couple that just retired and wants to move into a condo, you can get some old, well-kept, good-old-days-quality stuff for a fraction of what the new cheaper-quality equivalent would cost.

[necroshine]

I just bought a lcd tv through tigerdirect. It arrived with 3 dead pixels.
That is just shitty workmanship with no quality control. Now I have to wait 2 weeks for a replacement to be shipped to me, if not longer.
This is not tigerdirect fault but it’s a hassle. Anything made in the states is not good quality. For that matter nothing is any more. at work I have to put out quick art and get it back as fast as I can. We can not have a backup of work for any reason. So no matter how shitty it is that is how the co. wants it. up till the moment that they can blame you for something then its your fault for not taking the time to do it correctly.
The bottom line dollar is all that matters.

[vertigo]

I just bought a lcd tv through tigerdirect. It arrived with 3 dead pixels.

Isn't there a store near you where you could have bought a TV? It would be easier to return then.

[necroshine]

but i found a "better" deal online. it was $50 cheeper and a much better tv. so i thought. when i get a good one shiped to me it should be a good little tv. i can connect my computer up to it where the one i found where i live could never do that. so i hope i get a good one in soon.