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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jul 27, 2006 10:34:39 GMT -5
Ok the theists of the world always mandate that their God. At least the first one was not created but the creator. When talking about the universe they always state that it has to have been created. My question is why is this? We know about as much about the universe en total as they do about their God. So on what basis can they say that their God was always in existence (even without proof of his actual existence), and yet state that it could not be that way with the universe. (which they do not only have proof of, but tangible proof of its existence)
As far as the Idea that the universe has to end I believe that this is probably true, as what begins must end. Still what is to say that just like a tree dieing and falling to the ground, the universe's end is not just another universes beginning? Thoughts any one?
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Post by necroshine on Jul 27, 2006 17:43:44 GMT -5
“Thoughts anyone?” Oh yea!!!!
Who says the universe has to have a beginning? We know the universe is expanding. But we don’t know if the universe has expanded before. If everything starts to collapse latter in the future. Lets say we do have enough dark matter in the universe to cause it to start contracting. Just like anything else when it gets so small everything hits together and out it goes again. Like a rubber band that has bounced back. It would be and endless cycle or maybe it isn’t endless only to happen so many times till it stops.
Who says there is only one “verse” we call it a universe but we are inside the bottle. What if there are multiple universes outside ours. Imagine that we are inside one bubble of a countless supply of bubble universes. That doesn’t explain why we are expanding. Unless there is a LOT of expanding going on.
What if we are expanding because of black holes, or better yet white holes. We can only think that we have seen only a small part of our universe. Who is to say that our universe is being feed more material from somewhere else. Where is the material going when it hits the singularity of a black hole? Does it even go anywhere at all, or does it go back from where it came?
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jul 27, 2006 22:10:59 GMT -5
Their belief is on faith alone. The concept is that God does not exist in time. There is no meaning of time to God because He is omniscient. Part and parcel to the verse "I am the Alpha and the Omega." - Revelations 1:8
I'll stay out of the scientific aspects... and stick with the social sciences.
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Post by Unbeliever on Jul 28, 2006 18:51:18 GMT -5
Many theists seem to think that if something can be conceived, it is both logically and physically possible for it to exist. They've had to retreat time and again as science and logic undermine their conception of God. Well, according to this article by Quentin Smith, big bang cosmology makes it less, not more, probable that a God exists: A Big Bang Cosmological Argument for God's NonexistenceI'm not convinced that anything that begins to exist must end. That certainly seems to be the case for things within the universe, but for the universe as a whole that might not necessarily be true. Things within the universe begin to exist as recombinations of pre-existing entitities, but the universe itself does not appear to be a recombination of pre-existing entities, so there's no reason to think it must end.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 26, 2006 23:40:27 GMT -5
Good question, DragonOfHeaven. You asked:
Because the universe exists in time, meaning that it must have had a beginning. Consider the following argument:
Either the universe had a beginning or it did not. Suppose that the universe did not have a beginning. That would mean it has existed from the infinite past, which also means that it is infinitely old. Okay so far. Now, if the universe is infinitely old, then it must have traversed an infinite span of time. But this is impossible, by the definition of infinity. Thus, the universe (and time itself) must have begun a finite time ago. Modern physics is in perfect agreement with this.
Continuing on, since time itself had a beginning, the Cause of its existence must be outside of time, by definition, since clearly a cause is always separate from its effect. This is the KEY. Thus, this Cause would have no beginning or end, because he/it exists outside of the time domain.
But why think that the First Cause exists at all? Because if the universe had a beginning, it is reasonable to postulate a Cause for its beginning, a Cause which itself must necessarily be uncaused.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 27, 2006 23:40:10 GMT -5
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