About the Devil

[Dragon*of*Heaven]

Well it just kinda dawned on me that every one Christian calls the Devil a lier and a cheat. Ok I kinda want to test this little theory so I went to the Bible and other works by Christan's and I never once found a single place that the Devil lied. Not One Bloody Place People! In all actuality he always tells the truth and he always follows through with his deals. "You want to get out of the mess your in, ok it will cost this. You want to sell your soul for laker's tickets, ok it will cost this." In all the story's about him he never lies. This includes the story of Adam and Eve. The God said not to eat the fruit of the tree. The Devil said it will give you knowledge so go ahead and eat it. (if this is true then It did and knowledge is so good to have) God said "You will die if you eat of the tree." the snake said you will surly not die from eating of the fruit." OK well who was it who shortened their life span as punishment, and made delivering children more painful. GOD is the answer here in both cases. The fruit did not do it. God did it. It dose not say in the Bible "Adam ate of the fruit and felt old." NO it says Adam ate of the fruit and had the wisdom to hide from the murderous God who he knew would be out to kill him for it.

Come on after all what God says "kill your first born" then when you are right about to do it sends an angel, doesn't even bother coming him self to tell you "No no I was joking don't kill the kid." Come on people open your eyes for me just a little please.

[necroshine]

That is a good one dragon,
I never really thought about that. But it is true. God has lied many times. Changed his mind and just acted mad. Hmmmmmmm. Maybe in all the translations of the bible the two parts got switched? It’s the only reasonable explanation.

[snafui]

Very good ;D

In one of the threads on here I stated that the Devil/Satan/Lucifer was just someone that "disagreed" with God and God banished him for that. That's how I view him, he just has a different opinion and God does not like that.

[Dragon*of*Heaven]

In one of the threads on here I stated that the Devil/Satan/Lucifer was just someone that "disagreed" with God and God banished him for that. That's how I view him, he just has a different opinion and God does not like that.

Actually Snafui after a Little investigating I found out some interesting things.


First off all Christianity is not the first religion with the idea of Good God, Evil Demon/Deity as the structures of the divine spectrum. Nor is Judaic belief the first. In all actuality the first known religion with this format is called Zoroastrianism. In this religion the supreme God is Ahura Mazda. The Satanic figure is actually named Angra Mainyu (Avestan) or it is also stated as Ahriman in Middle Persain. Like Ahura Mazda Angra Mainyu was in existence since the beginning of the world. This deity chose evil and is therefor always apposed to his counter part.

Now where dose the Jewish faith come in? OK Before the Babylonian Captivity in 586-538 BCE Judaism held the belief in Lucifel (aka Lucifer/ Satan) as being the Highest angel in heaven. It was his position to test humanity's loyalty to God. After the Babylonian Captivity ended in 538 the Jewish people are recorded as holding Satan as being the opposing force to God and a rebel angel.

[snafui]

My study of religions doesn't include the foundation of those. I have looked into the mystery cults, Greek & Roman gods, some eastern religions (I am Taoist after all) and Christianity. So, thank you for the information.

[Dragon*of*Heaven]

No prob Snafui I like going back into the older things and looking at the branches to find the absolute begingin. So far Zoroastrainism is as far as I have gone with the Christain Church.

OH and over my lunch brake today I was looking at the information in the encyclopedia and a few other sources. A easy corrilation can be found between all three chruches further linking them and supporting the idea of it being the begining of them:

I got this from Wikipedia:

---

According to Zoroaster, the first of Ahura Mazda's creative acts was to emanate six "divine sparks", called the Amesha Spenta in Zoroastrian tradition, which are principal aspects of the Creator and the foundation upon which Geti (the universe) is governed. In later Zoroastrianism, the six Amesha Spenta (lit: 'Bountiful Immortal') came to be personified as archangels - each responsible for a special domain that they helped create:

In addition, Ahura Mazda is often seen to be represented among the Amesha Spenta as well, as Spenta Mainyu, the 'Creative Emanation' or 'Holy Spirit'. As a member of the Amesha Spenta, Spenta Mainyu helped create humankind, and presides of Ašavan (lit: good man), upholders of Aša (Truth). This fundamental doctrine is only alluded to in the Gathas, but is systematically explained in Bundahishn 3.12. Although the Bundahishn, an 11th or 12th century text, is not considered to be scripture, the principle is generally accepted as doctrine.

The relationship between Ahura Mazda and Spenta Mainyu is a subtle one, and may be compared to the relationship between Yahweh and the Ruah haqodesh in Judaism, or God the Father and the Holy Spirit in Trinitarian Christianity.

---

[Unbeliever]

Indeed, according to the Bible, God is not at all trustworthy:


Jer 20:7

O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Ezk 14:9

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD hath deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Jer 18:8 with 2 Chr 34:33, 2 Kng 23:3,5,8-15,21-22,25; 2Kng 23:26-27

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

And Josiah took away all the abominations out of the countries that pertained to the children of Israel, and made all that were present in Israel to serve, even to serve the LORD their God. And all his days they departed not from following the LORD, the God of their fathers.

And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suberbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire. And the altars that were on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and tha altars which manesseh had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat down, and brake them down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron.
And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had built for Astoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Kemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.
And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men.
Moreover the altar that was built at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove.

And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant.
Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah;

And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.

2 kngs 23:26-27

Notwithstanding the LORD turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal.
And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.

So, God certainly didn't keep his promise that he made through Jeremiah, but when the king and nation did everything they could to turn to the Lord and keep his ways, God said, "Oh well, that's all very well and good, but a few hundred years ago a different king, who's dead now, pissed me off, so you guys are toast!"

[Dragon*of*Heaven]

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD hath deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

I may just be looking for problems but dosent it seem that these two quotes in particular seem to be a bit well anti christian?
number one says that if god tells a lie to a prophit he will kill the Prophit to cover his tracks. Two states that he will do evil. Any one else see a problem with these?

[snafui]

Great job guys! I'll say it agian: Satan was just a guy that disagreed with God. Not much of a difference between the two when you find verses like that, huh?

[dan]

dragonofheavon said:

I went to the Bible and other works by Christan's and I never once found a single place that the Devil lied.

That is not true. In the Garden of Eden, the devil said to Eve that "You will not surely die," but in fact she and her husband did die, as God promised. The devil is also called a liar/deceiver in the following passages:
John 8:44
Ephesians 6:11
Revelation 12:9

Furthermore, it is mentioned that the devil "blinds" people's minds to the most important truth of all, the gospel of salvation (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Not One Bloody Place People! In all actuality he always tells the truth and he always follows through with his deals. "You want to get out of the mess your in, ok it will cost this. You want to sell your soul for laker's tickets, ok it will cost this." In all the story's about him he never lies.

What stories are you referring to here? The notion that the devil tells people what the cost is of "selling their souls to him" is not found in the Bible anywhere. In fact, the devil does everything possible to make people trust in lies so that they will follow his suggestions rather than God's commands.

OK well who was it who shortened their life span as punishment, and made delivering children more painful. GOD is the answer here in both cases.

Right, but this only shows the faithfulness and truthfulness of God. God keeps his word: he warned Adam of the consequences of disobedience, and he followed through with it. But the devil said that it wouldn't happen at all, so that makes him a liar.

Adam ate of the fruit and had the wisdom to hide from the murderous God who he knew would be out to kill him for it.

Adam was hiding because he felt guilty, and knew that God would be justifiably angry.

Come on after all what God says "kill your first born" then when you are right about to do it sends an angel, doesn't even bother coming him self to tell you "No no I was joking don't kill the kid." Come on people open your eyes for me just a little please.

God wasn't playing a practical joke, he was testing Abraham to see if Abraham would trust him at all costs. In the end, God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his firstborn son, and he prevented it from taking place.

[dan]

snafui said:

In one of the threads on here I stated that the Devil/Satan/Lucifer was just someone that "disagreed" with God and God banished him for that. That's how I view him, he just has a different opinion and God does not like that.

It's not simply that the devil has a "different opinion" than God; it's that the devil's "opinion" is wrong, by definition, since God created the devil (before he turned evil) and gave him the ability to think and reason in the first place. If God exists, then there is an absolute standard of truth and of right and wrong, since God is the Creator of us and the reality we live in. So whenever anyone has a "different opinion" from God, he is necessarily in the wrong.

God isn't simply the "most powerful Being" that exists, he is the only Being who is self-dependent, and the existence of all other Beings is dependent on Him. "From him, and through him, and to him are all things" (Romans 11). So by definition, God's nature is the standard for morality, truth, and reason.

[dan]

unbeliever said:

Indeed, according to the Bible, God is not at all trustworthy

Some of God's promises were conditional, meaning that they could be changed based on people's behaviors (Jer. 18:7-10). (To be sure, some promises are unconditional, such as the Abrahamic Covenant, the Second Coming of Christ, etc.)

Jer. 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

This is the King James version. Some versions use the word "persuaded" instead of "deceived."

(Ezek. 14:9) And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD hath deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

This is not an instance of God speaking untruth to someone, but an instance where God providentially orchestrates circumstances so that a prophet believes something false. The purpose of God doing this is to punish a false prophet, I believe. Consider the following analogy:

Suppose a mass murderer was about to kill someone in the person's own house, and he is confident that the police have not yet caught on to him. He arrives at the house and pulls out his gun, only to face ten police who come out of hiding and place him under arrest. Now, in some sense you can say that God deceived that mass murderer into thinking that he would get away with his crime. God is in control of all events, so this would be God's doing. But would you have a problem with this kind of "deception" and call God a "liar" because of it? I don't think so, and I don't think anyone would rightly have a problem with it at all.

In the same way, God "deceives" people at certain times to fulfill His good purposes, such as punishing a wicked person. But this kind of "deception" is vastly different from lying or breaking promises, and is not evil at all.

2 kngs 23:26-27
"Notwithstanding the LORD turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal.
And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there."

So, God certainly didn't keep his promise that he made through Jeremiah, but when the king and nation did everything they could to turn to the Lord and keep his ways, God said, "Oh well, that's all very well and good, but a few hundred years ago a different king, who's dead now, pissed me off, so you guys are toast!"

No, in this case the nation of Judah had gone too far: one king had "shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to the other" (2 Kings 21:16) and practiced child sacrifice (2 Kings 21:16). Enough was enough, time and time again the nation abandoned God's commands. It's almost like a child who repeatedly disobeys his parents, then "says sorry," then disobeys again, and the cycle continues. Eventually the parents will say, "Enough is enough; you need to be disciplined." God made the same decision with the nation of Judah.

I need to add something here. It must be noted that God did forgive the Jews on an individual level, to those who truly repented. This is seen in the chapter before the one you quoted, where God promised King Josiah that he would not personally live to see the destruction of the nation because he repented (2 Kings 22:18-20). On the national level, it was too late, and rightly so.

[snafui]

Dan:

It's not simply that the devil has a "different opinion" than God; it's that the devil's "opinion" is wrong, by definition, since God created the devil (before he turned evil) and gave him the ability to think and reason in the first place.

(Emphisis added.)

I think you need to read Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Emphisis added.)

As for you pointing out that this comes from the KJV and not other versions only stresses the point made: the Bible has been re-written as to change it's meaning. This has occured in every translation I have read. The words used in Greek are often, intentionally, mistranslated so as to make a meaning that is not there to satisfy beliefs that have developed over time.

[dan]

snafui said:

Dan:

It's not simply that the devil has a "different opinion" than God; it's that the devil's "opinion" is wrong, by definition, since God created the devil (before he turned evil) and gave him the ability to think and reason in the first place.

(Emphisis added.)

I think you need to read Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Emphisis added.)

The word "evil" in this passage does not refer to moral evil (sin), but to disaster. In other words, God "creates disaster" such as tsunamis and earthquakes. This is not the same as causing someone to do something sinful or evil.

There are other examples where the word "evil" in the King James version means disaster or harm rather than moral evil:

"Because thou hast made the LORD, my refuge, the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee,[/i] neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling" (Psalm 91:9-10).

"There shall no evil[/i] happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief" (Proverbs 12:21).

"But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. And when the men of Israel turned again, the men of Benjamin were amazed: for they saw that evil was come upon them[/i]" (Judges 20:40-41).


The Bible makes it clear elsewhere that God is not the originator of anything morally evil or unjust:

"He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He" (Deut. 32:4).

"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (I John 1:5).

As for you pointing out that this comes from the KJV and not other versions only stresses the point made: the Bible has been re-written as to change it's meaning.

Rather, the English language has changed over time. The King James version was produced in 1611, when English was much different than it is today. For example, the King James Bible uses the word "conversation" to mean "behavior." That's because in the 1600s people would understand "conversation" to mean that, whereas today we think of conversation as "talking."

This has occured in every translation I have read. The words used in Greek are often, intentionally, mistranslated so as to make a meaning that is not there to satisfy beliefs that have developed over time.

That may be the case, but that says nothing against the original authors or the God who wrote the Bible in its original form. All that tells us is that we may sometimes need to dig deeper into the original language in order to understand a given Bible passage.

[necroshine]

The Bible makes it clear elsewhere that God is not the originator of anything evil or unjust:

God made it all do you not agree? So he made the devil and the devil is evil so god made evil. Its that simple. And when you take into account that he knows how the last day is going to play out before he even made adam he knows what is going to happen and is ok with it. He knows all and made all even evil. Do you agree?

If I made a robot that went out and started killing people I would be held responsible for my creation. Isn’t god responsible for his? God made the devil and knew exactly what the devil was going to do before he created him. If not then god can not be all knowing can he?