snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jan 1, 2007 22:32:17 GMT -5
Dan:
Dan:
This is standard apologist rhetoric. The word is correctly translated. It says evil every other time it is translated and it should be translated the same in this instance. You have been lied to. I read that the word "day" used in the creation myth was correctly translated to mean, "period of time." This was to allow an argument that evolution and creationism could be worked together. The author of that argument lied, period.
Words can change with time. Grammar can change with time. But the word and example do not match.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Jan 8, 2007 15:40:01 GMT -5
Dan: Dan: This is standard apologist rhetoric. The word is correctly translated. It says evil every other time it is translated and it should be translated the same in this instance. Certainly the word "evil" in the King James version means moral evil (that is, sin) in many instances, but not always. Sometimes the word means "disaster" or "calamity." Examples: "Because thou hast made the LORD, my refuge, the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee,[/i] neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling" (Psalm 91:9-10). "There shall no evil[/i] happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief" (Proverbs 12:21). "But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. And when the men of Israel turned again, the men of Benjamin were amazed: for they saw that evil was come upon them[/i]" (Judges 20:40-41). The use of the word "evil" in the above passages are clearly speaking of evil in the sense of "disaster" or "harm," not moral evil. Knowing this helps us to understand the following passage: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:[/i] I the LORD do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7). Here it is stated that God creates evil (in contrast to peace), meaning in the sense of human disaster, not moral evil. Agreed! Either he lied or he was ignorant. The word "day" means a literal day in Genesis, and it is an injustice to the text to translate it any other way.
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jan 9, 2007 15:04:20 GMT -5
I don't think it's as clear as you would like it to be:
Psalms 91:9-10 If this were the case then why do men of god do have "evil" fall upon them? (Following your translation)
Proverbs 12:21 Same thing... if one is just, let's say like Job, then why did "evil" fall upon him?
Those two are either correctly translated as evil and no other definition is available or it means disaster and the Bible is wrong.
Judges 20:40-41 On the following I would agree it means destruction... know nothing about this one. But then it begs a question... what about the context? The context shows that's what it could mean... but the original verse of God creating evil still stands... if it were that he allows evil that would be one thing, this is that he creates evil. The context is not the same.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Jan 9, 2007 17:52:58 GMT -5
I don't think it's as clear as you would like it to be: Psalms 91:9-10 If this were the case then why do men of god do have "evil" fall upon them? (Following your translation) Proverbs 12:21 Same thing... if one is just, let's say like Job, then why did "evil" fall upon him? Those two are either correctly translated as evil and no other definition is available or it means disaster and the Bible is wrong. There are a few possibilities as to what those passages are saying. (1) They are expounding on the conditional promises that were given to the Israelites by God in Exodus-Deuteronomy. Basically, God promised that He would protect the Israelites from their enemies and prosper their nation if they obeyed Him. So the passages are expounding on those promises and also expressing the general truth that God protects those who love Him. (2) The passages are referring to ultimate harm, that is, something that is not ultimately good for the person. The Bible says elsewhere that "All things work together for good to those who love God and are the called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28). Stated negatively, this means that God will not allow anything to come into a believer's life that will ultimately harm him: "There shall no evil happen to the just." Besides, if the word "evil" in those verses were intended to mean moral evil, they wouldn't make any sense: "No moral evil will happen (?) to the just" "No moral evil will befall (?) you..." Okay, but we already have a precedent for translating the word "evil" as "harm" in the King James bible; that is, we know that it is a possibility. So you cannot say that the Isaiah passage is definitely stating that God creates moral evil. Furthermore, look again at the verse: "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and I create evil." God is contrasting light with darkness, and peace with evil. That is further evidence that "evil" in this passage is the opposite of peace (i.e. disaster), just as light is the opposite of darkness. We also have Scripture passages elsewhere that strongly and clearly state that God is not the author of moral evil. So I believe my original point is still reasonable: the God of the Bible has never been the cause of moral evil, meaning that evil originated out of the free will of the devil and mankind. By the way, snafui, thanks for being polite and reasonable in your responses. I often encounter people who are really condescending, but I haven't noticed that with you.
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