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Post by necroshine on Aug 8, 2006 17:44:34 GMT -5
You all know how the churches put up messages in front of the church? The one today said. “treat people as patiently as god treats you.” I wanted to laugh. No where in the bible does god treat us patiently. We mess up the first time and god curses everyone forever. Then he kills everyone on earth because we are evil. Then without us even able to prove ourselves he has condemned us to be evil in the future and will destroy us again. Yea god is real patient.  |
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Aug 8, 2006 23:34:55 GMT -5
Patient is the last thing God is, I agree. Like I've said, if Christians actually studied the Bible as it commands they do, they would no longer be a Christian. This is just an example of them not studying. They cannot support that tripe by what the Bible shows God has done to a myriad of people.
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The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Aug 9, 2006 9:24:38 GMT -5
Treat people as patiently as god treats me huh? Ok, guess I'll go punch someone in the face, steal his wallet and piss on him for good measure.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
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Post by dan on Dec 27, 2006 22:39:35 GMT -5
Consider the crucifixion of Christ: God himself came to earth as a man, then suffered at the hands of humans and died for our wrongdoings. Jesus endured mocking, severe beating, and crucifixion, during which anytime He could have wiped out His enemies. But he endured all of that because of His love for us, people who have rebelled against him.
"God demonstrates his love for us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).
I would call that patient!
Another demonstration of God's patience is found in the Book of Judges:
The Jews forsake God and disobey His commands, God allows them to be oppressed by their enemies, they repent, God forgives and delivers them, and then it happens all over again. Time and time again the Jews forsake God and then turn back to him when things get tough, and God forgives them.
Consider other examples that demonstrate God's patience:
-God waited 400 years to punish the Amorite nation, because their sin was not great enough (Gen. 15:6).
-God is waiting to return to earth because He is patiently waiting for sinners to repent:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (II Peter 3:9).
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Post by necroshine on Dec 28, 2006 6:52:19 GMT -5
Would you? That has nothing to do with being patient. It has to do with dilutions of grandeur. God comes to earth to sacrifices himself to himself for his own sake. What good did that do? Nothing, it didn’t forgive us of any sin. We still have to ask for forgiveness all the time. It didn’t forgive us of original sin. We are still suffering for that. god still forgave us of our wrong doings before he did this so I don’t see where it did any good. Let me know if you see where it changed anything god does after he did this.
They can not go to heaven now. They don’t believe in jesus. So all the jews are going to hell. so what is your point in this? Again I don’t see god as being patient or all loving for that matter.
Oh please lets….
So now there are different degrees of sin? Doesn’t that contradict where it says that all sin is the same?
You know and I know that not everyone is going to believe in god on the earth at the same time. So why would god put that in the bible? Never has there been any time on earth that all men believed the same way. Surly god knows this. So that passage is stupid in the bible to begin with. Wouldn’t you agree?
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 28, 2006 23:09:07 GMT -5
Would you? That has nothing to do with being patient. It has to do with dilutions of grandeur. God comes to earth to sacrifices himself to himself for his own sake. What good did that do? Nothing, it didn’t forgive us of any sin. We still have to ask for forgiveness all the time. We do, but forgiveness was made possible by the crucifixion of Christ. Without the crucifixion, God would have no justifiable basis to acquit us of our wrongdoings: "[Jesus] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree" (I Peter 2:24). "Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:8-10). Christ's sacrifice did pay for original sin, but there are still temporary consquences that we all have to deal with. For example, consider someone who commits adultery and leaves his family. Suppose he later regrets what he did, and apologizes to his family and also asks for God's forgiveness. Certainly God will forgive that man (that is, that man will have right standing with God again), but the man may still have to face the consquences for his sin (a broken family). Ultimately, of course, everything will turn out for the good for those who have accepted God's forgiveness. Even then, forgiveness was only possible because God had planned all along to provide a sacrifice (Christ's crucifixion) for sin. So even Old Testament believers (Noah, Moses, King David, etc.) can only be forgiven because of Christ's crucifixion. No, not all Jews go to hell! The Jews who were around before Christ could still be saved. Anyone who truly knew God back then was forgiven by God and will go to heaven. Examples I gave of this were Moses, Abraham, and King David, but it applies to anyone who lived before Christ. (And again, that forgiveness was made possible by the atonement of Christ that was to take place.) Jews of today who reject Jesus as the Messiah will not go to heaven, but that is only because in rejectiing Jesus they are really rejecting God, who is Jesus' Father: "He that hates me hates my Father also" (Jesus, from John 15:23). "Jesus said to them, `If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God' " (John 8:42). In one sense, all sin is "the same" in that it is a violation of God's Law. As an analogy, murder, stealing, and speeding are all violations of civil law, and we would call each action "breaking the law." But it is clear that some violations are worse than others. A similar principle applies to God's Law: Some cultures are "worse" than others, because immorality and sin can be more rampant in some cultures than in others. When sin reaches a certain level in a society, God's righteousness can no longer tolerate it and He does justice on the society. But God's patience is seen when He puts up with much sin for a long period of time before judging a nation or culture, which He did with the Amorites as I mentioned earlier. (This is food for thought for our own nation, the United States!) The point is, the same principle applies on a large scale to the world as it does to individual societies. God patiently waits to punish a nation (or the world), in this case waiting for certain people to come to repentance that He knows will. |
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Post by necroshine on Dec 29, 2006 9:49:04 GMT -5
How about just saying I forgive you because I know you will sin, I made you like that. why all the hoopla? Just forgive us. He knew we would do everything that we do. So just forgive us. No reason for the blood shed.
Therefore he did not forgive us for original sin. It still stands. God did not forgive us for original sin if we still have to ask for forgiveness for any reason.
Whf? That is so backwards I don’t even know where to start. i guess you believe that crap but please stop making stuff up when talking to us. NO WHERE in the bible does it say that.
How in the world can god send his chosen people to hell? you do know that in the bible he calls the jews his chosen people? So how could he send them to hell? they do believe in god in the way he told them that they should. Its not the jews fault that god changed his mind. This unchanging god. b/s
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
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Post by dan on Dec 29, 2006 13:46:25 GMT -5
How about just saying I forgive you because I know you will sin, I made you like that. why all the hoopla? Just forgive us. He knew we would do everything that we do. So just forgive us. No reason for the blood shed. God did not make us like that: "God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes" (Ecc. 7:29). God created Adam and Eve perfect, and they had the ability to never sin, if they so chose. But they sinned, and ever since then their descendants have sinned and are thus in need of forgiveness. Bloodshed was necessary in order to appease God's justice and holiness. Someone had to pay for the sin of mankind, otherwise we would have to pay for it ourselves. The fact that God was willing to sacrifice Himself for this purpose shows how far He is willing to go to save us. God forgives those who ask for the forgiveness and repent. This includes original sin as well as personal sins. But Christ's sacrifice isn't applied to those who reject Him. I think that seems reasonable. What's the difficulty you're having with that? To be sure, the Jews are God's chosen people, as the Bible states. But this doesn't mean that everyone born into a Jewish family gets an automatic free ticket to heaven. If a person rejects God, whether Jew or non-Jew, God will punish that person. The Jews are God's chosen people in the sense that: (1) Through them the Messiah and Savior of the world came (2) God revealed His nature and commands to the Jewish nation (3) As a nation, the Jews have a special place of honor because of their relationship with God God chose Israel as a nation, but on the individual level it is different. Every individual has a personal decision to make, whether he/she will accept or reject God, whether the person is a Jew or not. Actually, this is not true! The foundation of the entire Christian faith is precisely the Jewish Scriptures, called the Old Testament. Christianity must follow from the Jewish Bible. Many passages in the Old Testament point to Jesus as the Jews' Messiah, and Jews must either ignore or twist the meaning of certain passages to justify their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. As an example, one passage in their own Bible, Isaiah 53, is sometimes passed over in synagogue readings because it so clearly matches the historical Jesus and Christian theology. Another way Jewish rabbis try to get around this passage is to assert that the individual referred to in Isaiah 53 is actually the nation of Israel rather than the Messiah. But this interpretation is clearly contrary to the plain meaning of the text, and rabbis of the past never saw it this way. The clearest way to lead a Jew to Jesus is simply to read their own Scriptures and show them their own ancient rabbis' writings! In what way has God "change his mind"? |
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Post by Unbeliever on Dec 29, 2006 18:26:10 GMT -5
We do, but forgiveness was made possible by the crucifixion of Christ. Without the crucifixion, God would have no justifiable basis to acquit us of our wrongdoings: Oh? Then why was it he had no problem wiping out Mary's original sin (through her Immaculate Conception) so she could give birth to Jesus? Why could God not simply wipe out everyone's original sin? Is he not powerful enough? It is, after all, only himself that must be satisfied. |
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Post by nonny on Dec 30, 2006 0:20:34 GMT -5
God created Adam and Eve perfect, and they had the ability to never sin, if they so chose. But they sinned, and ever since then their descendants have sinned and are thus in need of forgiveness. If god created adam and eve to be "perfect" then anything we do doesn't need forgiveness because there is nothing else that they should have done and likewise with thier "ancestors". Also if God made adam and eve perfect and they sinned then they shouldn't be punishable for thier actions because that is how god made them and he should punish himself first for poor work manship. Further more, if god gave adam and eve, also indirectly us, the power to make choices then any choice we make is therefore the right thing to do by the hand of god, and we can never be punished and sent to hell. Also I find it sad to have to think I would be related to you, no offense but i'm not even fond of thinking of who i really am related to. I rather not be related to every rapist, murderer, and idiot in the world ^.~ NOTE: I havn't read the whole thread only this part and got a synapsis from my dad, snafui, and decided to post even though i'm on vacation. |
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
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Post by snafui on Dec 30, 2006 17:56:42 GMT -5
Dan:
Isaiah 53:3-7 refers to someone in past tense - how is that a prophecy of something to happen in the future?
3) ...we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted...
Using the supposed prophecies in the Bible is a mute point. Nostrodamus can be used as a prophet by those choosing to see what they will.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Dec 31, 2006 0:01:54 GMT -5
Hey Dan! New Christian "face" Nice to meet you. Hope you stick in there. It is nice to have company. I kind of wish you name was Dave so I could say "Dave... what are you doing Dave?" Anyway
Yea God made Adam and Eve perfect he also gave them free will. Since they were free to do anything, they choose to sin and here we are today.
Also everything you do has a consequence. God asks you to ask for forgiveness because you need to realize that you did something wrong. That the course you choose was not the best so if you ask for forgiveness you humble yourself realizing you did wrong and apologize for doing so. That is what asking for forgiveness is anyway.
Also God has a lot of patients that fact that we are here discussing his patients is saying a lot because if I were him I might just do something to show you how powerful I am. But God has confidence in himself and doesn't need to stoup to such action because his is God and no matter what you believe will change that fact.
Which brings to mind a question I just love to ask. ;D How do you know how patient God is? You don't believe in him. So how can you know attest to his personality? He doesn’t exist, therefor could not be impatient with you? That is if you don't believe in him. But if you do believe he exist then maybe you can claim to know.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 31, 2006 16:53:23 GMT -5
Hi guerrillasaint,
It's nice to meet you as well. You asked me how I know that God is patient, since I "don't know Him." Actually, I am a Bible-believing Christian and I do claim to know him. I know that He is patient because of the Bible passages I pointed out above. I can personally attest to God's patience as well, as I have experienced it in my own life.
I was brought up in a solid Christian home, and I even claimed to be a Christian, but for a large portion of my teenage years I was not living a godly life. ("He who says, 'I know him', and does not keep his commands, is a liar and the truth is not in him" - 1 John 2:4). I rebelled against my parents, lied to them, and made all kinds of foolish decisions. But a few years ago, for no apparent reason I gradually started wanting to do the right thing, and I began to turn around. Without getting into details, something huge came up, and that was the final catalyst that caused me to turn to Christ and repent. Ever since then I've been a different person.
The reason I share that story is to show that I can personally attest to the fact that the God of Christianity is patient. He put up with years of deliberate rebellion against Him, and He protected me from experiencing the full consequences of my bad choices. After all that, He brought me to salvation!
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 31, 2006 16:57:51 GMT -5
We do, but forgiveness was made possible by the crucifixion of Christ. Without the crucifixion, God would have no justifiable basis to acquit us of our wrongdoings: Oh? Then why was it he had no problem wiping out Mary's original sin (through her Immaculate Conception) so she could give birth to Jesus? Why could God not simply wipe out everyone's original sin? Is he not powerful enough? It is, after all, only himself that must be satisfied. I do not believe that God "wiped out Mary's original sin". The Bible does not indicate that at all, it only indicates that Mary was a sinner just like everyone else. (The belief that Mary had no original sin is a Roman Catholic teaching, and not from the inspired Scriptures.) Does that mean that Jesus had original sin? No, because Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit," who is perfect. |
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 31, 2006 17:15:02 GMT -5
God created Adam and Eve perfect, and they had the ability to never sin, if they so chose. But they sinned, and ever since then their descendants have sinned and are thus in need of forgiveness. If god created adam and eve to be "perfect" then anything we do doesn't need forgiveness because there is nothing else that they should have done and likewise with thier "ancestors". Adam and Eve were created morally perfect, but they were also created with "free will," the ability to choose right or wrong. Thus, it was entirely up to them whether or not they wanted to remain morally perfect, and they chose not to. They deliberately disobeyed God's command, even though they had the ability to obey it, and this makes them guilty. There's a difference between creating someone to be a sinner and creating someone with the power of choice. God did the latter. He made Adam morally perfect, but He also gave Adam the ability to make his own choice about sin. Consider a child who is told by his mother to "not eat any cookies." Suppose the child's mom leaves for an hour. If an older sister comes in and hands the child a cookie, forcing him to eat it, she has "forced" him to disobey. If she only leaves the cookies on the counter to see how responsible he will be, she is only making it possible for the boy to disobey. That is what God did with Adam and Eve. He left it entirely up to them whether they would sin or not, and unfortunately they chose to sin. Ha? I don't see how that follows. If a parent lets his teenage son go out at night, thus making it possible for the teenager to make bad choices, would you then say that it is "the right thing to do" if the teenager takes drugs? I see your point, but facts are facts, whether or not we like them! If you happened to be born in a family where your uncle was a rapist, you couldn't change that fact simply because you are not proud of it, unfortunately! |
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