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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Sept 26, 2006 11:54:11 GMT -5
Dear Atheists, Agnostics, Catholics, Pagans and Christians
To some of you the notion I have discovered will probably be old news but still it is a revelation to me. I have finally figured out the strongest reason as to why I don't believe in the Christian God. It is because the Catholics and Christians believe that every action in every detail of their life is devoted to God. They believe that a life without God is meaningless. Any existence with out God is seen as selfish and childish. The Christian faith holds that their one precious life means nothing in response to Gods will and his plan. They hold the idea of "How dare any one hold what is in this life to be sacred. How dare any one hold this life to be sacred for that matter. In the end it is all nothing compared to the light of God and thus all live's mean nothing without him." "If any one believes their life to mean any thing out side of God except selfishness then they are a sinner at best and a heretic at worst." "All man kind is to be therefore selfless and ultimately for their fellow man and not for their self."
God is to them the Corner stone in the entire reality of a Christian. That is the reason they do not like to see the light of reason. That is why they don't like questions about their God. If a Christian were to truly question they could not be a believer and would not be doing Gods will. The Christian has to there for neglect this life in order to love the next one more.
The Christian thus commits the ultimate betrayal to him self by abdicating his hold on his one precious life. The Christian believes only in faith and therefore is doing nothing but trying to outshine the truth of reality with the beauty of wishes. That is the Catholic and Christian stand point. It is why they are religions of death and not life. It is also why they are wrong.
Please leave comments
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Post by necroshine on Oct 1, 2006 5:56:21 GMT -5
The religious don’t want to think that life has no ultimate meaning. They want to “know” that they are here for a purpose. That is what I hear from all of them. I’m fine with the notion that we are just here. We are only here for a extremely short time, then we are gone. We have no personal concept of the time before we was born and we will not know the time that will pass after we die.
I find the idea of heaven just as absurd as the idea of hell. you do not raise your children to not want for nothing. You tell them they have to work for what they want. That is the noble way to live. You do not sponge off people and let them take care of you. Why would god make such a place where you want for nothing? Its just as stupid as the notion of hell where you will be in torment forever.
Yes the religious will close their eyes to the proof that the bible is wrong. In every point that you can bring up they will say they have faith. That is all they need. To believe in a lie. They would rather do that then look at the truth.
They say that man was made on the 6th day. If we look at the fossil records that is not true in any way. But yet they will still hold god up to be true while they say that the bible was written by man. It is a crutch for them that they do not want to let go of.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 31, 2006 12:54:41 GMT -5
Alright I supose I have a question to pose then. We think we are correct, Is it our purpose to try to guide them to think? Or should we just do our worst and leave them to their own devices. Yeah I know the first part will have a great deal of opposition and may even be considered futile, but if we leave the majority to its own devises and they deiside to go into another batch of "Holy Wars" (I know, this is already happing) it will eventualy affect us as well. What should we do?
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Post by necroshine on Oct 31, 2006 14:27:58 GMT -5
True. Just like the church thinks it is correct. I have no proof that god does not exist. But I have stronger evidence that he doesn’t.
We have no purpose. That is what I think. We are here by some cosmic accident. Now if I could make the people in power stop the fighting I would. Bottom line I have no control over anything that others do. People have been trying to stop wars for a long time. Politics have been trying to start wars even longer. It makes me sad beyond words that we are in the “war” that we are in. this is not a war as I see it. We are going over there and forcing our will on people who don’t care and killing them and ourselves for a futile purpose. “we the people” have to want to stop the fighting. But as long as god is on our side how can we loose?
I view it like the gay issue. The religious are wrong. Everyone should have the same rights as any other human on the earth. Every time some prejudice is over turned it is looked on as a good thing. This will be no difference. It is the same as giving women and blacks the same rights as white men. But yet people in the church think gays should be discriminated against. Its not going to happen but I would love to see that being the issue that takes down the church and causes people to turn their back on god. But hell if the church can harbor child molesters and on one cares this will be no different.
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Post by Unbeliever on Dec 8, 2006 18:55:11 GMT -5
We think we are correct, Is it our purpose to try to guide them to think? You can lead people to knowledge, but you can't make 'em think. |
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Post by Unbeliever on Dec 8, 2006 18:56:47 GMT -5
We should get in their faces at every opportunity, and let them know that at least some of us won't buy into their bullshit! |
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Post by Unbeliever on Dec 8, 2006 18:59:21 GMT -5
I don't think I'm correct - I know I'm correct, in that I'm absolutely certain that the God of the Bible does not exist. And it's a good thing for all of us that it doesn't, since it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God! |
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Post by Unbeliever on Dec 21, 2006 18:14:52 GMT -5
True. Just like the church thinks it is correct. I have no proof that god does not exist. But I have stronger evidence that he doesn’t. We have no purpose. That is what I think. We are here by some cosmic accident. As Unk said, in The Sirens of Titan: I agree, my existence is predicated on the existence of the rest of the universe in which I am embedded, and is but a miniscule portion of the entirety of space/time. I think the universe is as it must be, since if it could be some other way, it would (I mean the universe, not the multiverse). The facts of my existence were no more chosen by myself than were those of an amoeba, and I have as little effect on the future of the cosmos. My worldline (if I live to 100yo) is only 1/137000000 of the lifetime of the current universe, and the ratio gets even smaller as time passes. So the vast majority of existence is closed to me, since I cannot be present there. Where I can be present is here, now, and that's all I need concern myself with, except to appease my curiosity as to how I got here, and how I fit into all else that is. Those answers will not be found in fantasy, but only by the diligent work of hordes of scientists, mathematicians and philosophers. By seeing the world as it is, not how we wish it would be or how we sincerely hope it is. |
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 27, 2006 22:42:40 GMT -5
I don't think I'm correct - I know I'm correct, in that I'm absolutely certain that the God of the Bible does not exist. But what is your evidence for that? |
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Post by necroshine on Dec 29, 2006 9:24:40 GMT -5
I have said this before,
What is god? God has certain properties that he says he is.
God is supposed to be unchanging. He has changed his mind on many things through the bible. So therefore god is not unchanging.
God is supposed to be all powerful and every where all the time. If that was true we would be able to see him. We don’t’ see infinite power when we look into space or across the room. If he was everywhere I would not be able to see my computer because he would be in the way. If you say he is outside our universe then he doesn’t matter. Anything that could be outside our experience can not matter and shouldn’t that is why science don’t deal with any idea that is outside our universe. Science says about the big bang that we can not know if anything started the universe and it doesn’t matter because it is outside our universe and is not subject to our laws of nature so we can not define it.
God is supposed to be all loving. He has drowned everyone on the earth. He has burned whole towns. He has pitted man against man, and he has done many many things that is not what I would call loving. Hell he made the devil knowing that he would be the most evil thing that he would make. What about that is loving? God himself isn’t what he says he is.
So now that I gave you many reasons why god does not exist can you give me any outside the bible of why he does?
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Dec 29, 2006 20:35:26 GMT -5
Have you read any of st thomas aquinas necroshine? In Summa Theologica question 25 he outlines many of those problems. Also he comes to some interesting points. I suggest you read them and redefine your argument because it is a bit dated.
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Post by necroshine on Dec 30, 2006 13:50:06 GMT -5
no i have not. i was just putting some things out for an argument against god. i have yet to hear any good arguments for god, other than this is nice so god must had done it. or i don't know how this got here so god must had done it. i will look this guy up and read some but for now what about what i said is dated?
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 31, 2006 18:36:44 GMT -5
God is supposed to be unchanging. He has changed his mind on many things through the bible. So therefore god is not unchanging. God's nature is unchanging, but that doesn't mean His decisions are always final from our perspective. Many of God's predictions were conditional, meaning that they depended on people's behavior. For instance, consider the city of Nineveh. The prophet Jonah warned the city that it would be "overthrown in forty days." But because the people of the city sincerely repented, God "changed" His mind (in our perspective) and chose to not punish them. Of course, God knew all along that they would repent, but His prophecy through Jonah was given on the presumption that things would continue in the direction they were currently going in. (See Jeremiah 18:7-10.) So in no instance in the Bible does God change His nature, He only "changes" His conditional promises if the behavior of the people change. How does that follow? God is separate from the physical universe (because He created it!), and He also created our sense of sight, so He could certainly be everywhere at once even if we do not see him. He does matter, because He is the Source of the universe, He created it, and He is intimately involved in it. Our very existence, and the existence of everything in our lives, depends on God: "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). "In him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). Furthermore, God is holding all of us responsible for our choices (He's in charge, by definition), and we will stand before His Judge seat one day: "God will give to each person according to what he has done...in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ" (Romans 2:6, 16). So even though God is not the universe, He is extremely relevant to us! Just because God isn't part of the universe itself doesn't mean that He is "outside our experience." As the Bible points out, He created the universe and He is intimately involved with His creation. It's like an engineer and a car. The engineer isn't part of the car, but he can be involved with the car if he chooses to be! God certainly is loving, but that doesn't mean He's a sissy. He is also a God of justice. He will not tolerate evil forever. There comes a time when sin and wrongdoing must be punished, and the examples from the Bible that you mentioned are such cases of that. It's almost like a judge in a criminal court. The judge may sentence a criminal to prison for life, but that doesn't mean the judge is "unloving." Or consider a policeman who shoots a criminal to keep the criminal from shooting an innocent person. You wouldn't call the policeman "mean" or "unloving" for doing that, although it was a violent thing to do. The fact is, it is a justified act. Whenever God does something that seems "mean" in the Bible, it is always an act of justice. "Knowing" that the devil would turn evil does not mean that He "made" the devil evil. Originally, the devil was a morally perfect angel that God created. Just like humans, God gave angels the ability to choose whether they would obey or not. Satan chose to rebel against God, and that is why he became "the devil." As I've tried to point out, I don't think the reasons you gave against God's existence really hold up. Of course, I explained all that in detail above. Reasons to believe that God does exist:-The origin of biological life -The evolution of biological life -The fact that the universe had a beginning. (Anything that begins to exist probably has a cause for its existence.) -The historical evidence for the resurrection -Predictions of the Bible that have been fulfilled If you want to talk about any of these points in detail, I'd be happy to. |
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Post by necroshine on Jan 1, 2007 8:41:09 GMT -5
You can point to god for that but tell me how he created it what is the process that he used to create life? You can not tell me that. science tries to tell us that without copping out and saying flatly that god did it like you are trying to do. When science does explain where life comes from and it doesn’t need a god then what will you say. Much like many other discoveries we have made that we thought god did it. Like lighting and earthquakes for example. We know why they happen and lighting isn’t god pitching lawn darts to earth.
Ha!!!!
According to the church evolution didn’t happen. Unless you are saying you know more than the body of the church you can not point to the bible for evolution for anything. Even speech. We are as we ever were.
Another laughable statement. You don’t know.
All we know is that the universe is expanding. We don’t know if the universe had contracted in the past we don’t know if it will continue to expand or stop. All we know is that it is expanding. As many scientists say the universe could have contracted down till everything hit then started to expand again. We don’t know. To say that the universe even had a beginning is silly. We don’t know.
Outside of the bible where is this evidence? There is no evidence that jesus ever existed. Can you show some that no one else has?
What about the predictions that have been fulfilled in the Koran? How about the predictions in many bibles? They all have the same type of predictions in them. The bible make no more than the others.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Jan 3, 2007 17:43:12 GMT -5
You can point to god for that but tell me how he created it what is the process that he used to create life? You can not tell me that. You don't have to know how an intelligence created life, or who the intelligence is, in order to conclude that it is impossible without an intelligence. For instance, take a computer. Now tell me: do you have to know exactly how the computer was assembled in order to know that it was assembled by an intelligent mind? I agree with the church's position that evolution did not happen, but this was exactly my point. Evolution is impossible apart from an intelligent mind, because of all the specified complexity and information that is required to get from a simple cell to a human. So either (1) evolution was accomplished by a God or (2) evolution didn't happen at all, God directly created fully-functional organisms. I happen to believe the second, because that's what the Bible teaches, but either way, God exists! Ah...you haven't yet heard why I conclude that the universe had a beginning in the first place. Let's just forget about the evidence for the expansion of the universe and the Big Bang. Even if all of that is invalid, there are two other reasons why the universe must have had a beginning: 1. Mathematical-Logical ReasonEither the universe had a beginning or it did not. Suppose that the universe did not. That would mean that the universe is infintely old, by definition. So the universe would have traversed an infinite span of time. But wait a minute...traversing the infinity is a contradiction, by definition, since infinity means "no end." Thus, the universe must be finitely old, and thus have a beginning. What if the universe came from another universe, which came from another universe, and so on? That just moves it a step up, because the principle is the same: it can't go back forever, there must be a starting point, per the above argument. 2. The Second Law of ThermodynamicsThe Second Law states that the amount of usable energy in the universe is decreasing over time, and the First Law of thermodynamics states that the total amount of energy is constant. So if the universe was infinitely old, all the usuable energy would be gone and the universe would have reached its heat death. But there is still usable energy in the universe, so the universe must be of finite age. (There are other factors involved, but this is the simplest explanation of the argument and worth consideration.) Important Note: How could the universe have a beginning but God not have a beginning? Because the difference is, the universe exists in time, whereas God created time and hence must be outside of time altogether. Since God is outside of time, He has no beginning or need for a Creator. Actually, there are many non-Christian historical sources of the time that mention Jesus: Josephus, Jewish historian, The AntiquitiesFestus was now dead, but Albinus was but upon the road, so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, whose name was James... Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man...he was a doer of wonderful works...He drew over to him many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles...Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day...the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.Pliny the Younger, a Roman official (62-113 A.D.)Letters, Book 10, Letter 96. TO THE EMPEROR TRAJAN:...The Christians...affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god...Cornelius Tacitus, Roman historian (100s A.D.)Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontus Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but also in Rome... (Annals 15.44) Lucian, Greek writer in the 100s The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata). Babylonian Talmud, Jewish rabbinical writingIt has been taught: On the Eve of the Passover, they hanged Yeshu [Jewish name for Jesus]. And an announcer went out in front of him, for forty days saying: `He is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray...' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the Eve of the Passover. (Sanhedrin 43a). Our rabbis taught that Yeshu had five disciples: Matti, Necki, Netsur, Burni, and Toda. (Sandhedrin 43a). Dialogue against Trypho 108, Jewish source, A.D. 190One Jesus, a Galilean deceiver, whom we crucified; but his disciples stole him by night from the tomb, where he was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead.So it is clear from the above non-Biblical and non-Christian sources the Jesus was in fact a real historical figure, and that many of the events recorded in the New Testament surrounding his life actually did take place. You have to analyze each religious book separately and compare. You cannot just assume that all predictions are invalid. The Koran's predictions are few and questionable in comparison to the Bible's. If you want to check this, just go to any Islamic website and ask them for a list of prophecies in the Koran. If there are other religious books that contain legitimate predictions, show them to me and we can look into them if you want. |
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