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Post by guerrillasaint on Dec 31, 2006 0:16:47 GMT -5
Which brings to mind a question I just love to ask. ;D How do you know how patient God is? You don't believe in him. So how can you know attest to his personality? He doesn’t exist, therefore could not be impatient with you? That is if you don't believe in him. But if you do believe he exist then maybe you can claim to know.
I have a question to you Guys. Why are you so interested in things that the debunk Christian God? You can exist with out Christians so I was just wondering why don’t you discuss the falsehoods of the Muslims, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu religions ? Why are you so hung up on the Christian religion?
If you do find research the falsehoods of other religion why not discuss them heavily on the website?
Well just wondering. Have a great Day/Evening.
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Post by necroshine on Dec 31, 2006 6:23:09 GMT -5
Good questions.
The first part can be answered easily. I don’t believe in god. But just reading the bible it seem clear he is not patient. We have been over this issue with you before. Unless I’m getting you mixed up with another thread. But I seem to remember saying. In the first book of the bible god already killed everyone on the earth in a flood because he seen we was already to evil to exist. I find that non-patient don’t you? The first book of the bible and he kills everyone. Wtf?
And as far as other religions go, I would argue on each one of them if I knew more about them but the fact is I know more about the Christian god than the others but I’m working on that. I live in the usa so that is what I know. And so far as I can tell the muslim god and our god is the same god its just the details are different. I find it funny that the muslims follow the bible closer than the christens do. Both bibles say not to make any in graven images but the christens don’t follow that rule while the muslims uphold it. Why do you think that is? Why is it ok for the christens to break that commandment? Everywhere you look there is a cross around some ones neck and Christ on a stick in a lot of homes. In a lot of places you see engraved images but according to your bible that is a sin. Look around your room how many do you have? better get rid of them. God don’t want you to have them.
I also find it funny that the muslums bible say to love everyone much like yours does but yet it says to hide and wait till a sinner comes by then kill them where you see them. Much like the bible tells you to kill sinners. The Koran tells of a great flood, and many other storied that the bible has in it. Funny isn’t it. I’m learning more about the Koran but I just know more about the bible, and I don’t have any muslums in office wanting to take away my freedoms in America, so I don’t have to fight them.
Have you ever read the Koran?
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Dec 31, 2006 17:54:57 GMT -5
But just reading the bible it seem clear he is not patient....In the first book of the bible god already killed everyone on the earth in a flood because he seen we was already to evil to exist. I find that non-patient don’t you? The first book of the bible and he kills everyone. God didn't just "kill everyone" because they did a couple bad things. The whole world had grown corrupt and everyone had turned evil: "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence" (Genesis 6:5, 11). Because sin was so intense and widespread at that time, God wanted to push the "reset" button, so to speak, because things had gotten so out of control. The Flood was also an act of justice. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Bible does portray God as patient in the crucifixion of His own Son for our wrongdoings. Where does the Bible say this? |
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Post by necroshine on Jan 1, 2007 8:11:19 GMT -5
So what your saying is everyone was evil and god killed them. Correct? That is what I said. God killed everyone on earth in the first book of the bible didn’t take that long did it?
What are you talking about? Out of control? Nothing can get out of control when we are talking about god. God is supposed to be in complete control. Are you saying god isn’t something he says he is? Do you know god better then god knows himself? God knew we were going to be evil before he made us. He knew he was going to have to kill us all before adam and eve bit the apple. He knew they was going to bite the apple, and he knew that we are going to be evil again in the future and he is going to kill us all again in a worse way than before. That is what the bible says so as far as freewill we have none when god tells us he is going to have to destroy us again in the future when we become evil again. He has already passed judgment on us without giving us a chance. But of course he knows all now doesn’t he?
You’re kidding me right? You have read the book yourself haven’t you? Don’t tell me you believe in a book that you have not read. I will call you stupid 100 different ways if that is true. And if you have read the book you don’t seem to have any comprehension of the book. Hell he tells us to kill many times in the book. He says its ok to kill your children if they don’t behave. It says to kill gay people, god has sent man to kill man in wars in his name. don’t you dare say that the bible doesn’t say to kill because it most defiantly does. If you don’t know this you have not read the bible. And don’t try to tell me that the bible says not to kill its one of the commandments. The bible is full of contradictions that being one of so many.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 1, 2007 18:06:14 GMT -5
My mistake I accidentally copied and pasted a bit of my replies from another thread on this thread. I like to keep my responses.
Yes I know that a lot of the Koran has many of the Bible stories in them. I know they believe that are the next religious evolution , as for Jewish Christian traditions. They believe the bible had human errors and that Muhammad corrected them. Also any new profit that comes around can change the religion if they choose. I guess you can call it an ever changing religion.
God may have known that may of those that he created would become evil but he also knew that some would love him dearly and would be worth saving. Also he gave us all free will which means he doesn't control our every whim. We can either submit to his will or do our own. Doing our own will is usually selfish and evil. Even if it isn't meant to be selfish or evil it still my not be the most correct path.
As for killing all the people on the earth in Genesis well they weren't worth saving. He was just in his action. He would be just in his action to destroy us all now, but he has (must because he is patient). It may seem cold but it is the truth. No, God isn't always cuddly but he is a loving and a just God. One day our grace period will be over and Justice will kick in for those not covered in the blood of Christ. They had time to change and had full knowledge of the coming flood. Justice isn't always P.C. and everyone will not agree with it. Doesn’t make it unjust. Unlike human societies God's justice doesn't change with the times or the opinion. Also we are talking about an all knowing God. So he knew that they would never get better and that they wouldn’t try either. So eradicated a bunch of devout murders, killers, thieves, liars and the worst kinds of people inhabiting his creation wasn‘t so impatient. He isn't sorry he did it or he would tell us about it. So what you have is an honest and open God.
Also He loves people’s potiential and he knew that some people would be worth the wait. He had the patients enough to wait for all of those who will not only call themselves followers of Christ but will actually be followers in their hearts and actions.
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Jan 1, 2007 23:22:15 GMT -5
So what your saying is everyone was evil and god killed them. Correct? That is what I said. God killed everyone on earth in the first book of the bible didn’t take that long did it? First, note that a period of at least 1100 years transpired from the creation of man to the Flood, so there was really a good chunk of time before the Flood. And of course I agree with your statement that God "killed everyone of earth", but my point was that it was an act of justice and does not violate His goodness/love. That was the key issue, I think. Yeah, that's right. God is in control of everything, but He has decided to give the controls over to us when it comes to how we will behave. In other words, it was God's omnipotence that gave us the power of choice in the first place. That being the case, when we sin, it is solely our choice. It is true that God made this choice possible for us, just as a mother who leaves cookies on the counter and tells her son not to eat it. Of course, the mother was the one who made it [i[possible[/i] for the child to disobey her, but the choice was solely the child's. In the same way, things "got out of control" in the sense that mankind was running rampant with sin. In other words, they "abused their privelege" of free choice. This does not contradict the fact that God is all-powerful, because it was God's decision in the first place to give us the ability to choose. So what if He "knew"? The point is, He didn't make us evil, it was our choice. "When we become evil again" implies that it is our choice to become evil, which is exactly what "free will" means. I'm very familiar with the passages of Divinely commanded executions and wars, but I just wanted you to point out the specific passages you were referring to. Saddam Hussein just got killed this past weekend, as a penalty for all his war crimes. Was this wrong? I don't think so. My point is, you cannot make a blanket statement and say that "killing" is wrong in all situations. Sometimes killing is justifiable and even necessary, for instance in World War II against the Nazis. The acts of killing in the Old Testament are such cases of justified killing. The types of justified killing in the Bible are: -Just wars -The death penalty for a guilty person When God told the Israelites to wipe out certain nations, it was because these nations were so permeated with evil that there was no hope. God didn't just tell the Israelites to go against any nation, there were specific nations that were ripe for justice. These nations either (1) committed war crimes against Israel; or (2) were extremely morally depraved, practicing things such as idolatry, sexual perversion, or child sacrifice. There were many other evil nations of the time that God did not tell Israel to wage war against, because these nations weren't evil enough to warrant that. You're referring to Deut. 21:18-21, where a rebellious son (not daughter) who was a young adult (not a child) would be given the death penalty after his parents had done all they could to make him get his act together. "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death" (Lev. 20:13). The reason for the death penalty in that case is given right in the verse: homosexual intercourse is "detestable" and wrong according to the God of the Bible. Also, note that this legal penalty was to be incorporated into the Israelite government, but that doesn't mean than God commands just anyone to go around "killing gay people." In fact, God does not "hate [homosexuals]", He only hates their behavior, much the same way He hates the behavior of someone who sleeps around. Sex is a sacred and precious act that God Himself invented, and misusing it is a serious offense. Again, the instances where the Bible does command to kill were in specific situations and were cases of justified killing (as I explained above), and cannot be generalized into a command to go around killing people. Furthermore, if you read the New Testament, Christians are constantly commanded to love others, even those who mistreat them. For example: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse...Repay no one evil for evil...If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:14, 17-18). |
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jan 2, 2007 0:33:54 GMT -5
Dan:
Justice? Killing everyone but Noah and his family is justice? Do you listen to yourself or the pablum you've digested when it's been fed to you? God gave humans the choice to do as they see fit, isn't that what you believe? Then why is it that God will kill you if you don't do what He wants? This is not a choice, this is not freewill, this is an ultamatum. Just because one chooses something against God's "laws" is no reason for Him to slaughter those that he gave that choice.
Dan:
And your point is... that this makes it ok? A rebellious child (age is irrelevant) is put to death! This is not justice it's an un-just act by an un-just God, period. Oh, but wait that is based on the assumption that the Bible were actually inspired by God and infallible; it's not. Let's start with the simple concept that Moses, most likely, did not write the Pentatuch. Because Moses could not have written about his own death. And if someone added that, then what else did that person add? These laws were written by a close minded, intolerant, ego-centric, patriarchal society - by men.
Dan:
This is a pointless argument, if God made us, then He made homosexuals to be the way they are genetically. Are you telling me that it's a just God that would do this?
Dan:
Go read the New Testament some more:
"...if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." - Luke 22:36
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 2, 2007 22:57:57 GMT -5
quote]Justice? Killing everyone but Noah and his family is justice?[/quote] God would be justified in kill all of us because all of us have sin and the wages of sin is death. Yes, we have free-will. All action have consequences. God told Adam in the beginning that if he ate the apple then would surly die. You know why, because it was a sin. You act like God sprung the consequences on people without telling them. People in Genesis knew good in well that Noah was making an arc because it was going to flood. It took him a while to make the thing and it wasn't like it was small either. You also know that God said if you don't ask the forgives of your sins that you will God to hell. The Israelites knew that if they acted in a certain way they the can face death. They had Deu. and Lev. telling the all there Laws. Moses was up there on that mountain for a long time. It doesn’t take that long to just get 10 commandments. It is not like he isn't letting you know what the consequences of you action will bring upon you. It is childish and immature to calm that there is no free-will because you receive a consequence for you action. You either do his will or your own, you have the right to choose. Right now you are doing your will right? You don’t walk around like a robot with preprogrammed responses to how you deal with things do you? If you have the choice to slap someone or not and choose to do what you want to do then that is your will. If you choose what God wants you to do then that is his will. Get it? Get over yourself we are grown here. You know that life has consequences. Deal. You think that God has to line up to your opinion about what justice is because it just doesn't seem right, or democratic to you. Justice isn't P.C. it is the right thing. Doing the right things is rarely doing to popular thing.
Jesus knew that what he was about to do would set the world on end. No he didn't come to bring peace to this earth he came to find his lost sheep. He knew that people would like the message that he was bring and came to destroy all the folly of the earth. Those that have aligned themselves on the opposing side of God watch out. If you have read the entire passage he did say don't fear those who can destroy the body but the one that can destroy the body and the soul. Do you know this is war and God is on the winning side? Obviously not. Not all war is bad. Like Dan said some war is justified. He told us the Gate of hell will not prevail against the church. Do you understand that if you are on Jesus’ side you are on the offensive. In the passage that you are quoting he is sending his disciples out to spread the word. Spreading the word isn't easy and it isn't the popular thing to do. So he was getting the disciples ready for battle because that is what it is. You may want to see this passage as showing that God it against peace but he isn't. He was stating the fact that he wasn’t here to bring peace on Earth like the Israelites thought the messiah would come for. It seems to me that what you are really doing is using an ineffective trick to try to and twist a passage that you didn’t full lay out on this thread so that you can prove your point. Which makes you statement way wrong. Next time read the entire chapter then form your argument. If you read the entire chapter you misread it you should reread it. You may think that what I just wrote is silly but it is the truth.
Not all thing in the Bible are for the masses to go out and do. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples at this time. He wanted them to have protection because of the upcoming events, i.e. the crucifixion. I doubt that the disciples of Jesus would be very safe at that point in time. Stop taking things out of context. You can not clam to understand what the meaning of a Book, a paragraph or a story is if you just take one line out without reference to the entire passage so that you may twist it to suit your argument.
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Post by nonny on Jan 3, 2007 0:49:17 GMT -5
Snafui: Oops posted under daughter's account... read below!
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jan 3, 2007 0:51:50 GMT -5
guerrillasaint,
Justice is not what is taking place. It is the actions of a vindictive child not getting what he wants. It's akin to a child beating or torturing a dog because it refuses to play with them. People do not have to choose God by His design. God can't handle it when someone does not want Him so he punishes everyone? That is the height of immaturity. You cannot state that it is free-will with an ultamatim of "it's my way or death." This is tyrannical; tyrants are never just.
Justice is also a two way street. God does not abide by the Bible, supposedly, written by His inspiration. God lies, commands people to lie, changes His mind, supports human sacrifice, approved rape and many other egregious sins that men have been put to death over. Can this be a just being?
And as far as the Disciples using swords and not others... so it's ok for them not to turn the other cheek? That argument makes no sense. God came to bring peace in one instance and violence in another - it's called a contradiction and apologists can say what they like but you can only have so many errors before people see through the deciet of those apologists.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 3, 2007 22:56:16 GMT -5
Justice: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justice)
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin: 1. Any thought, word, desire, action, or omission of action, contrary to the law of God, or defective when compared with it. (American Tract Society Dictionary)
1.transgression of divine law. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sin)
Ro 3:20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it,22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
This is why I say God would be justified in killing us all. He has laid out his laws on how we should conduct our life. Still he has given us the choice in weather we want to obey those laws. When we receive the appointed consequence for the sin, then that is justice. your reference to the child and dog does not fit because the child didn't create the dog nor did it tell the dog what the law was. I am going to pick the choice between that of God or hell. Well hell is void of God. So if you live on earth choice to worship other gods, or none what so ever, then your choice is not to be with God. In the end you Get what you want.
Back up your statement.
When was this said? God does not send someone into battle with out the necessary tools. In Luke 22:36 he wanted them to be prepared and not to act in a rash manner. If the situation is at a point where you are unable to subdue your enemy and you must kill them, that is the situation. God knows a man’s heart. If he knew that you were malicious in your killing then it becomes murder. That is why he tells us to guard our hearts. (prov 16:2) In Ec 3:1 it says" For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: Ec 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" You just have to be smart enough to know what time it is. Also in Matt. 5:39 where it talks about turning the other cheek. God is talking about persistence. He wants us to stand firm in the face of our enemies. They slap one cheek we turn the other because there actions are not going to cause us to sin nor will it scare us away. We are supposed to be bold in the face of our enemies. This religion is not a pacifists religion it requires strength, perseverance, discipline, wisdom, love, kindness and an open heart to God‘s will through the Holy Sprit.
It is still his design.
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Post by necroshine on Jan 4, 2007 6:54:49 GMT -5
Guerrillasaint you talk 5 miles around in circles to try to miss one point.
God created us the way we are. He gave us the will to do what we like. Therefore he has no reason to kill us for the choices we make. I don’t care what he thinks is a sin. It is only god that says that the act is a sin. He is the only one that needs to be appeased because we do what we like when we gave us the choice to do what we like.
If he wanted to forgive us then he would just forgive us. Do you need blood from your child to forgive them? I hope not. When you punish your children do you kill them? I hope not. You love your children and you don’t want to kill them. If god even entertains the idea of killing us then he clearly don’t love us. It’s that simple. Only he needs to be happy if he thinks we fall short of his glory then its his fault. Its not ours.
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jan 4, 2007 16:58:27 GMT -5
If you insist...
God lies:
Prophets are to be God's spokeperson on earth and yet the Bible calls his prophets liars (2 Chron 18:22). They are lying for god. Jerimiah 20:7 (O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived,) is another case where the words are being changed so as to not make this obvious error in God's character. The word is correctly deceived and not persuaded as some apologists would like you to believe. God intentionally deludes people so not to see the truth: 2 Thess 2:11 (For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.) And for the most glaring just turn to Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Did they die that day?
Commands people to lie:
God tells Samuel to lie and go under false pretenses, 1 Samuel 16:2 (But Samuel said, "How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me." The LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.')
Changes His mind:
Ninevah? Either Jonah is lying and not speaking God's word, or God lied and didn't do as He said he would.
Approved rape:
Deut 22:28-29 There is no punishment to the rapist but that he should marry the girl and pay a fee to the father.
Supports human sacrifice:
Jesus ring a bell? Ezek 20:26 and Exodus 22:29-30 call for the first born children to be sacrificed.
And about justice you don't get it, do you. God is a tyrant that says you must do His bidding or die - this is not justice. Again, you are using the Bible to support your view. For those that do not choose to follow God would mean they choose to not follow His Bible. It's a choice that God gave us - are you saying He changed His mind yet again? The Bible was written by men and is not the inspired word of God. There are three rules for the foundation of the Bible that the Bible fails on all three counts. This means quite simply that it is not what you would like to believe.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 5, 2007 20:03:30 GMT -5
No he didn't
in Ge 1:27 it says " So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." "Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." The fact that their eyes were opened showed you that originally they were closed. So God made them with their eyes closed. Or in the Greek the word for opened is paqach which is figuratively used to mean to be observant. So they were unobservant to the evils of the world. "Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" You can't become like something else if you were not originally made that way. So God made Adam and Eve not knowing what evil was. They knew what good was because everything that God made was Good. (gen 1-2).
This he did do. He also gave us law so that we could lead a Good life. "Eze 20:21 But the children would not be controlled by me; they were not guided by my rules, and they did not keep and do my orders, which, if a man does them, will be life to him; and they had no respect for my Sabbaths: then I said I would let loose my passion on them to give full effect to my wrath against them in the waste land." What do you exactly think rule are for. He made us for himself so don't you think that we would be most happy doing the things that please him.
It doesn’t matter if others don’t think it is a sin because the nature of a sin is to go against the will of God. You may not care what God considers a sin because you don‘t have the divine power to do so. See you don't make the rules of the universe. You didn't wake up one day and decide to make everything.
You are kind of funny you know. I don't think you get the idea of who God is. He isn't just some cop or the president. You didn't choose him he chose you. He is allowing you to walk, talk ,sit ,think, and breath. He allows you to sustain your life and even get a job. "Mt 5:45 So that you may be the sons of your Father in heaven; for his sun gives light to the evil and to the good, and he sends rain on the upright man and on the sinner." He said a word and all of creation jumped into being. You don't think that requires at the very very very least a nod of thanks or acknowledgment to his existence?
Just because you love someone doesn’t me you allow them to walk all over you. You are living in God's creation using he everything that he has made (heck you are what he made) the way you want to. It is like you are in his house and he tells you the rules but you disregard all of them and don't even acknowledge the fact that it is his house and it is a privilege to be in his house using up his air and his food and his creature comforts. He even asks you before you leave to apologize, he sends people to tell you to apologize. Sends it by mail anyway he can get to, but you still treat him and his house with disrespect and then you just leave. Still, you want him to forgive you of this when you don't even show one iota of being sorry. Why should he forgive you of something that you are not sorry over. What makes you worthy of his forgiveness. Because he has given you the gift of free-will and you use it to disrespect him and even deny his existence? Who are you to be worth of such a thing?
This section is talking about when Ahad died. This is a short blurb about Ahab
AHAB
1. The sixth king of Israel, succeeded his father Omri B. C. 918, and reigned twenty-two years. His wife was Jezebel, daughter of Ethbaal king of Tyre; an ambitious and passionate idolatress, through whose influence the worship of Baal and Ashtoreth was introduced in Israel. Ahab erected in Samaria a house of Baal, and set up images of Baal and Ashtoreth; idolatry and wickedness became fearfully prevalent, and the king "did more to provoke the Lord to anger than all the kings that were before him." In the midst of this great apostasy, God visited the land with three years of drought and famine; and then, at Mount Carmel, reproved idolatry by fire from heaven, and by the destruction of four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal. About six years later, Ben-hadad, king of Syria, invaded Israel with a great army, but was ignominiously defeated; and still more disastrously the year after, when Ahab took him captive, but soon released him, and thus incurred the displeasure of God. In spite of the warnings and mercies of Providence, Ahab went on in sin; and at length, after the murder of Naboth, his crimes and abominable idolatries were such that God sent Elijah to denounce judgments upon him and his seed. These were in part deferred, however, by his apparent humiliation. Soon after, having gone with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, to regain Ramoth-gilead from the Syrians, and joined battle with them in defiance of Jehovah, he was slain, and dogs licked up his blood at the pool of Samaria, 1Ki 16:29-22:40. (American Tract Society Dictonaryh)
God didn't like Ahab that much and his time as being king was up. It wasn’t like God didn't send him warnings. So in 2 Chronicles he sent Micaiah to tell him what he was up to. Did he allow a lying sprit to be in the mouth of Ahabs prophets yes. Still he gave him a way out. God always give you a way out. If you don’t choose it then you receive the consequence for not obeying God. He is not going to punish you before you do wrong. Anyway Micaiah told Ahab and Jehoshaphat that the Lord God was in heaven and asked the host of heaven who would entice Ahab. Now that is entice not lie. One sprite said that he would entice Ahab by lying.(2Ch 18:20 see below) So God said go an entice him and you will succeed. At that moment in time God had lifted his had of protection from Ahab. God was done with Ahab’s foolishness and allowed him to choose his fate. If you read the entire chapter you would notice that Ahab had a choice to believe his prophets or to believe Micaiah.
2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?(21) And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.(22) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee
So if you notice that the prophets that were lying were not those of the Lord but those of Ahab. Ahab was not a follower of the lord but of Baal. So he had a bunch of yes men telling him what he wanted to hear. That is why he didn't like Micaiah because he was always telling him what the lord was saying (2Ch. 2 12-17). So God always gives you a chance even in the end. He will present you with a lie and the truth it is your choice what to choose.
Jeremiah 20:7 (O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived,) is another case where the words are being changed so as to not make this obvious error in God's character.
In this situations Jeremiah is just complaining because he never gets to bring good news to the Israelites and therefore everyone hates him and he suffers for it. No where did God tell him the he wouldn’t suffer. In Jer 17:17-20 it starts off with Jeremiah talking to the Lord "Be not a terror to me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. Let those be put to shame who persecute me, but let me not be put to shame; let them be dismayed, but let me not be dismayed; bring upon them the day of evil; destroy them with double destruction. Thus said the LORD to me; Go and stand in the Benjamin Gate, by which the kings of Judah enter and by which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem, and say: 'Hear the word of the LORD, you kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, who enter by these gates." God just told him to go and he went he didn't say he wouldn’t suffer. So in Jer 20:7 he is tried of having to be the bad guy and the messenger of doom and he is just pouting about it. No where does Jeremiah say “God was false when he told me .…” in this passage. He is acting just like Job. It isn’t easy being the messenger of the Lord.
This passage in a letter from Paul to the church in The church in Thessalonia. he is discussing the Anti-Christ(s). (I recommend that you take your time an read the entire book) in 2 Thess2:7-12 it is discussing the antichrists which not just the one who will come after the rapture but as it says in 1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." So when it says in 2 Thess 2:9-12 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." These are people working for the devil who have been exposed to the word of God but have rejected it. So God will become fed up just like we saw with Ahab and allow them to be trapped by their own ways. To me it looks like he will lay traps for all those who refuse to obey or allow them to lay their own traps. “Re 2:5 So keep in mind where you were at first, and be changed in heart and do the first works; or I will come to you, and will take away your light from its place, if your hearts are not changed.”
Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Did they die that day?( You sound like the devil "Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:") What death is God talking about? there are two deaths the mortal death and a spiritual death i.e. separations from God, eternal damnation. Sin is death "Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.";"Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Also in Ge 3:17 it says "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
God gave Samuel a way to find Dave (the new king of Israel) in a peaceful manner. Where does it say that Samuel didn't go and sacrifice? Since Samuel went in a peaceful manner to sacrifice he could gather all he elders together and their sons so that he can be told who would be the new king.
please explain.
That would seem to be the case but that doesn't mean that he is for rape. We also don’t know the social repercussions that happened. The father didn’t have to let the man marry his daughter, but the offender would still have to pay. I can’t clam to like every rule in the Bible. It was a different culture from ours.
Ah yes I remembered that after I talked to you. Yep he was a Human/God sacrifice. Also he was sent for that reason and he offered himself up as a sacrifice. See like I quoted above the wages of sin is death. So we would all have to die if Jesus didn‘t come. Jesus sent the period of Grace and God the Father knew that the sacrifice would have to be of one who was capable and willing to do so. Also Jesus came for those who where alive before him and after those who would exist after he died so that all that believers would enjoy heaven. You must also know that God isn't going to make you responsible for something you had no possibility of knowing. That is why people like Noah and Moses ect. get to go to heaven. He came so that we don't need to sacrifice animals or wheat and not to be reminded of our short comings. So now God the father can look upon all those how confess Jesus as their savior and see past their seen.
"Eze 20:26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD." It is just like Ahab and the Antichrists. He has dealt the Israelites being unruly and disrespectful and allowed them to destroy themselves. They were presented with the truth but they choose to disobey so he will allow them to do what ever they want to do to themselves. In 2Ki 17:15 it shows you what they were doing " And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger." So he let them follow their wicked ways until they destroyed themselves. I guess like allowing them to have the rope to hang themselves. They can choose to take it or leave it. When God present you with a lie you will all way have been presented with the truth. It is up to you which to choose. Like today I have presented you with the truth concerning the Bible. You have presented a lie. You can choose to believe what you have written or what I have written. It is still your choice and you will bring the consequence on your own head.
In Exodus it is talking about dedicating your first born to God. It doesn’t say that you will sacrifice your first born on the altar of the Lord. "Ex 22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me." If this was supposed to be where the blood of the child was supposed to be shed then it would have been spelled out in Numbers, Due, or Exodus. Still I haven't found any mention of this. If you find where the lord explains to the People of Israel how to sacrifice their children in the book of laws then you have some grounds to your argument. But I believe the he wanted the first born sons to be dedicated to Him.
So what is your opinion of justice? If God is such a tyrant do you feel oppressed? Are you not allowed to go and come as you please? You still make the choice you want to make right. Is God stopping you from doing so? How has God been a tyrant to you? Like I have stated before God will present you with the truth, and a lie it is up to you to choose. What ever you choose you will receive the consequence for it.
Of course the Bible supports my point of view. Why wouldn't my point of view be supported by the Bible. I study it daily and my point of view is formed not only by it but by God himself.
How could you possible know that. That is your opinion on the Bible. Is this your reasoning for debunking the Bible? Something you can't even prove. Now you don't have to prove it to me because I not going to believe you because I have my own personal proof. But can you honestly say that on a personal level that you can prove that the Bible wasn't the words of God given to man?
What foundations and how do they fail.
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Post by necroshine on Jan 7, 2007 8:31:31 GMT -5
So god is not in control and he don’t know all. Interesting
Absolutely not. I would not be happy if I done everything god wants me to do. I’m not going to kill gay people I’m not going to turn the other cheek when someone hits me. I’m not going to kill my children, I’m not going to kill people of other faiths I’m not even going to try to convert them. Do you follow all rules of the bible? I really hope not.
To think is to go against the will of god. So you need to have your brain taken out. Clearly god doesn’t want you to think for yourself. So stop trying to do it.
No I didn’t but if I did have the power I would just kill everyone because they didn’t do what I wanted when I gave them the ability to think for themselves. Do you really want your children to grow up and not think for themselves? Do you really want your children to turn to you for all the decisions they have to make in their life? Or do you want them to be able to stand and make their own decisions? Plus if I would to kill everyone on the planet I would do so in a way that they would not suffer. I have more composition than that. this is god we are talking about. Why not have all die from a brain aneurism? Something that would kill them quick. Why drown the people you love? God is a sadistic bastard.
I know what this sadistic bastard is all about. He kills what he makes. He tortures the ones he loves. He turns his creations on each other. Then he tells us its for his glory. He tells us its for our own good that we die. Screw him and anyone that can not think for themselves. I stopped believing in Santa , the easter bunny, father new year and god a long time ago. I’m better off for it. I have stopped dehumanizing other people in the world. We are all human and all deserve to be treated equal. I don’t care what color we are, what type of beard someone can grow, or how tall they or who they want to sleep with.
I didn’t choose him. Screw him. I also didn’t choose allha or zuse or the invisible pink unicorn. I don’t need any of them in my life.
Bull $hit. What about the people that can not walk talk sit or get a job?
You enjoy being blind to pure logic. I’m sorry for that.
No, screw him. He does not exist. And if for some odd chance that he does I will be more than happy to stand in front of him and tell him exactly what I think. oh wait I don’t have do he knows what I think doesn’t he? And this is what I think. “Screw that tyrant, he is no god of mine.” I think I will have that put on my headstone.
If that has true to any level which it isn’t, I would say this.
I was not invited into this house and I can not leave this house without killing myself. So I’m a prisoner here. and I don’t care how comfortable a bed is in a jail cell you are still in a jail cell. And being that he is testing us. This would be a jail cell. Se how crazy that sounds. None of it makes any logic. That he has to test us when he knows what we are going to do in the first place. If I would force you to live in my house would you treat me with respect? Or would you try to escape when ever you can?
I have yet to receive any mail from god. And he doesn’t ask us to apologize he tells us to do so or he will send us to hell. for this he gets my middle finger,
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The hell I do. I don’t want or need his forgiveness when I have done nothing wrong. All I have done is try to survive in this world I was born in, the best way I can. I didn’t bite the apple; I didn’t do anything the bible says I should ask forgiveness for. I don’t hold your god in authority and I don’t recognize his rules. No more than I hold the rules of the Koran in my life. God can take a leap off an infinity tall ledge for all I care.
I don’t need his forgiveness again he gets my middle finger, nlm.
I am NOT sorry for what I have done to survive in this world when everyone will take advantage of me even in ways I can not control. If god gave me free will then he should be ok with what I do. That would like if I gave you $50 and told you what you had to spend it on. If I had that restriction on the money o should just give you what it is I wanted you to have in the first place. It saves a bunch of hurt feelings in the long run. Or is god not even that logical?
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