snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Jan 7, 2007 11:35:55 GMT -5
If Adam and Eve had their eyes closed to the evil of the world, they must have been closed to the good as well? If so how did they sin? They would know no difference. You can't know good nor evil without knowing the other? And if they were created in God's image then it's not much of an image is it? That is with them being mindless. Obey God's laws? No, thanks I'd rather not have the death penalty for so many ridiculous infractions. No, nature does. That's only what you believe. I do not. So making someone lie is ok? It was a spirit for God. God sent the spirit to lie to men, period. You mean like a lake of fire if you don't follow Him? What about blaspheming the Holy Spirit? There is no out there, it's an unforgivable sin. I notice you changed versions to suit your argument, again. Why does it not bother you that so many words are specifically changed because they need to be to fix a glaring error? And this is not a translation issue - the word used is lie not entice. So the messenger of God, speaking God, in the inspired by God Bible, mis-spoke? He calls God a deceiver for no reason? About 2 Thess 2:11 It specifically says that God sends delusions, you are rationalizing. Gen 2:17 has nothing about a spiritual death, this is just a convenient excuse by apologists that has no merit. It says " die," period. It's talking about a physical death. 1 Sam 16:2 - A lie is a lie. Being a "peaceful" way out is a poor excuse for lying. Why not? Oh, could it be that there were no other repercusions because women were treated like chattel? The only punishment, handed down by God, is to pay a monetary value - none other is mentioned. On human sacrifice: you can believe as you like but that does not change that what you do with your first fruits is to sacrifice them. There is no mention of there being a difference. On Ezekiel - it is still God wanting them to do this behavior. It is tyrannical to threaten people to do your bidding. It's that simple. Why does a God that is suppose to be so wonderful need to threaten you to follow Him? Follow Me or I throw you in a lake of fire and you don't see that as oppression? Now about the cannon: To be considered to have come from an all-powerful God, a book must meet certain requirements.* 1) First, it must be transmitted to us accurately from the time it was originally written so that we may have an exact representation of what God said and did. 2) Also, it must be correct when it deals with historical personages and events. A book that confuses names, dates and events has no right to claim it comes from an infallible God. 3) Furthermore, any revelation from God should be without any scientific absurdities which would betray that it came by mere human authorship. www.coptic.net/articles/TheStoryOfTheBible.txt1) In your own response you show that the Bible has been changed to suit the needs of followers. It fails numerous times on count one. 2) It's history is horrid. It talks about wrong dates, places and times; and that's just when it gets some of the names right. There is no credible evidence outside the Bible that Jesus even existed - it doesn't have that right. 3) Scientific absurdities? Dragon and necroshine have more than covered this on numerous occasions. The Bible fails on the three rules of the cannon. A book supposedly inspired by an omniscient being would be error free; the Bible is not. Despite the numerous rationalizations you have used in this argument you cannot change the wording to suit your needs; you cannot change the translations to suit your needs; you cannot just choose to believe and expect us to accept that as an argument. The Bible is not what you would like to believe it to be.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 8, 2007 1:18:11 GMT -5
What is really interesting is how you think that if God did not make people the way they are today that that lack of action causes him to lose control.
How do you know? Have you ever done any of it? Do you know what he wants you to do? If you do how?
Jesus died so that a lot of people would have to be killed for the sins they have committed. One life for many. I don't have to convert people I just have to tell them about Christ, and be an example to others as well as help my fellow Christian’s in their walk.
Stop acting like your opinion of the way God runs things if the way God runs thing. If you are going to make a statement like that then back it up. I know he tells us to think on many occasion. "Pr 1:1 ¶ The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; (2) To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; (3) To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;" "Pr 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding" " Pr 1:29 For they were haters of knowledge, and did not give their hearts to the fear of the Lord:" "Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "Pr 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;" " Pr 6:6 ¶ Go to the ant, you hater of work; give thought to her ways and be wise" " Pr 14:15 ¶ The simple man has faith in every word, but the man of good sense gives thought to his footsteps." " Pr 15:28 ¶ The heart of the upright gives thought to his answer; but from the mouth of the evil-doer comes a stream of evil things." If it was agains God's will to think then I doubt he would give us the ablity or tell us to do it.
God never killed everyone. Then there would be no one on earth because everyone would be dead. Also where does it say that he will kill you for thinking for yourself? What do you really base this statement? Also what do you mean when you say you wouldn't kill everyone of earth?
Yes I would hope they would make their own decisions. I would also hope that they would make wise decisions not just any decision. I would hope that when I have children they could seek my counsel on anything. Still the nature of a mother child is different from a God and His creation relationship. Also if I was a mother I would not have all of the right answers, but God has all of the right answers. He even says just ask and he will tell you. (Jas 1:5 it is written out above) I asked God today about something that was troubling me already and got an answer. Heck I have done it a couple of times.
Why would you kill everyone of the planet?
No you don't know him or you would call him that.
What do you mean Kill? Kills what exactly? When did he torture the ones he loves. When did he turn his creation against each other? Please explain to me what you are talking about.
Watch what you say because you may just get it. No you will not be better of without him. You haven't tried it yet so how can you know? If you don't watch it one day when this life has passed you may see what it is like to live without God. Still as long as you are alive you can always confess your sins to Christ and be forgiven. Once you realize you are wrong and want to be forgiven and ask Jesus then all is good. If you never ask then you will never receive.
I didn't know that believing in God means that you dehumanize the world. I don't do that. Where did you learn this? Who taught you that? Where in the bible does it say to do such things? Doesn't it say to love your brother? "Ro 12:10 Be kind to one another with a brother's love, putting others before yourselves in honour;" " 1Jo 2:10 He who has love for his brother is in the light, and there is no cause of error in him."
Why are you so angry? You don't believe that God exist so why get so made? Are you afraid of something? Do you think that people who can't walk or sit don't get God's blessings? Heck I don't have a job right now that doesn't mean that I am not still blessed. I know a pastor that is blind and deaf in one ear I know he is still blessed. Anyway I was just using those as examples I didn't want to rattle off a lot of examples.
You can't do that if he doesn't exist.
You will get your chance to stand before God one day. And yes he will know what you have written, said, and thought, because as you know he knows the hearts of men. Also I want this question answer please. You and Snafui say that God is a tyrant but neither of you have shown example of his oppression in your life. How has he oppressed you today. Don't you rely on proof but you have no proof to back up you statement of how God has terrorized you or oppressed you today. Is he such and oppressive God that you don't even believe he exist?
What kind of prisoners can go into space and do what ever they want to. What kind of prisoners live in castles. You are an American right. Come on we live in one of the richest countries in the world. Do you hate the way your life is? Is it truly a prison? Do you feel like a prisoner? Do you really want to kill yourself is that how your life is going? If so then how fine are you really doing without God? If not then how fine are you really doing without God?
You may not have received mail from him. I guess you never get any filers from Churches or another Christian thing. Also you must never see any billboards talking about God...wait? Still, I know you received a dream from him. Do you remember because you posted on this website. It was called a Dreaming about Hell you started it on 12/26/04. I am not quote from it but you can't say that God never talked to you because he did. You just don't want to admit it because then all that you believe would be wrong.
You are really funny. So what if you don't think that God is an authority. That doesn't stop him from being one. You don't posses to power to think someone out of an authority position. I can run a red light and get pulled over and get a ticket even if I don't think the stop light exist. Doesn't make it go away. If I close my eyes to the world the world does not go out of existence.
and that still doesn't make him not exist.
Yes you do need forgiveness.
He can be ok with giving you free-will but He does not have to submit to your will. If he doesn't recognize you as an authority it sticks.
He doesn't have restriction on free-will or you couldn't do what you wanted. You do have consequences for your actions because there is always a consequence. Doesn't it state in Newton’s Third Law of Motion states that “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. Yea I know we are not talking about motion but it fits. Consequence 1. the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier
(I am not done yet I just want to go to bed. So in the morning I am going to address snafui)
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dan
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 116
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Post by dan on Jan 8, 2007 21:32:19 GMT -5
I think there is some misunderstanding of what we mean when we say that God gave us "free will." We are not saying that God gave us free will in the sense that a king might give his right-hand man the power to make decisions at his own discretion for the kingdom. Rather, God is like a father who tells his son to clean his room and then leaves the house for an hour. By leaving the house, the father has provided the son with the possibility to disobey, but that doesn't mean that the father has no right to be angry if the son actually does disobey.
It's the same with God. He tells us what we must do, but He also allows us to make our own choice. Like the father in the above analogy, this does not mean that God has no right to be angry with us if we make the wrong choice.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 9, 2007 1:22:33 GMT -5
(Aright I am back.)
No their eyes were not closed to the Good. You don't need evil to understand good. It is what they lived in every day. It is all they knew "Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good:..." "Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good." "Ge 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." This is just a few of “and it was good” versus to give you and example of what Adam and Eve lived in. If know evil is what makes you have a mind do you call the innocent children mindless? Must know evil to have any kind of sense? That sounds kind of backwards to me.You have never known just good so you could not possible comment on wither Adam and Eve were mindless. They were naive to evil but they were not mindless. God said he created them in his image he didn't say that he made a carbon copy of himself. Image is used figuratively in this verse anyway. You can't even attest to his image because you don't know what it looks like and you don‘t believe he exist.
Who made nature? Or where did it originate from?
It doesn't stop you from living in his creation.
He sent a sprit to entice Ahab. The sprit choose to entice Ahab by lying to him through his own prophets.
Yes, you have an out of the Lake of fire if you ask for forgiveness of your sins. Also blaspheming the Holy spirit is when you deny Jesus divinity and don't ask for forgiveness so you can't take the holy spirit into you. Which means you have recognize God in his Goddom and you haven't asked for forgiveness so you go to hell. That is why it is an unforgivable sin because you haven't allowed God to forgive you."1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
First you didn't write out the entire passage and you didn’t say what version of the Bible you were reading from
So I just assumed you were reading from the King James version. Also if you had notice I quoted from 2chorn. 18:20-22. it is under the Fifth quote in the fourth grouping of words in my post on the fifth of Jan 2007.
No (to both) what is happening is God is show all of us that even his most dedicated workers become jaded and disgruntled.
Did I say that He didn’t? Still to fully understand the passage you must understand the nature of God. He test all of us to see if we are worth, as well as to give us chances to grow, or affirm our out look on life. Look at the book of Job to see what I am talking about. The word used in this verse for die in Hebrew is muwth it is used literally and physically. So it can be used either way. If you support that with verses like “Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” or “Ge 3:17 it says "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." It can be read either way.
If you read further you will see that Samuel did what the Lord told him to do. “1Sa 16:3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee. 1Sa 16:4 And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably?”
If that were true then he wouldn’t have sentences those rapped married women to death. Also Jesus wouldn’t have spent much time with Mary Magdalene or even addressed the woman at the well as other women. Can I say that I understand this passage to the fullest, no. Do I like it, no. That is what they did back then. Not now. In the new testament they spelled out more rights for the women. Also, If a man did force himself on a woman that was not married he would have to marry her unless the father said no. The money that he paid the father would be a dowry.
You know what I just took another look at Exodus 22: 29-30 it just say that the first born son shalt be given to him. That doesn’t say sacrificed. “Ex 22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.”(this is with the Hebrew and Greek words shown with the translation Ex 22:29 Thou shalt not delay <'achar> to offer the first of thy ripe fruits <m@le'ah>, and of thy liquors <dema`>: the firstborn <b@kowr> of thy sons <ben> shalt thou give <nathan> unto me.) The word in Hebrew is nathan, naw-than'
“a primitive root; to give, used with greatest latitude of application (put, make, etc.):--add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, X avenge, X be ((healed)), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit, consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute, do, X doubtless, X without fail, fasten, frame, X get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), X have, X indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, X pull , put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up), + sing, + slander, strike, (sub-)mit, suffer, X surely, X take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, + willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield.” There is nothing in her that say sacrifice. Still, the word nathan is used for may other things.
I also took a closer look at Ezekel 20:26 and I know what this mean now. It means that he made their sacrifices to other gods unclean. See the Hebrews had turned away from God’s rules and were sacrificing their children to other Gods. He allowed them to receive bad information. So he made there sacrifices unclean. Eze 20:31 Explains why he did it, “For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.”
No that is not the answer to my question. How has God been a tyrant to you. Just you. What is your personal experience with his tyranny? And not I don’t see it as oppression because I am hardly oppressed, and when God came to me he didn’t say believe me or go to hell. He said pretty much hey I am God and I said ok. It wasn’t much because I was just around four.
I don’t believe in God because of the Bible. You see when I read the Bible the Holy Spirit fills in the blanks. Not me. The Holy Spirit. If you truly want to understand the Bible you need to know the nature of God. To know the nature of God you need the Holy Spirit. God uses himself to correct the short comings of man.
Well I believe Dan has been able to explain Free-will more clearly than I ever could. Thank you Dan.
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