|
Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Dec 20, 2007 12:48:55 GMT -5
Alright first let me say that should any of my compatriots believe my explanation to be lacking please help fill in the blanks. Alright on to the nitty gritty: God is defined by the major three religions of this planet as: A singular being of unfathomable power who created everything and controls every thing, is eternal and never had a beginning and therefor subsequently has no end. Such a being cannot have competition in truth or existence because it would mean that this the God in question was not supremely powerful and so not God at all. Any competition against a supreme being automatically negates that beings supremacy. Therefor any working Alternative in actuality is impossible.
In theory it is also impossible because a supreme being automatically by its very nature must create a flawless creation. Perfection yields perfection. Looked at in the most prevalent light of evil as a privation this is also not possible because any flawless creation would be logically out of context with any privation. As a supreme being must be supreme in its logic it could not surpass such a law. By the way Simply side stepping the issue by stating that God is all powerful will not help you here as there are still things an all powerful being could not do. (such as create a contradiction, such as negating its self or creating something greater than its self.) So in theory competition is also impossible.
Therefor if a theory is created that is more plausible than the man in the sky theory, or if a theory is created that has either more theoretical clout or scientific backing than your God, he cannot exist. Disproving the God theory is actually rather simple in this case. You can take any one of a number of scientific theories for the creation of the universe. All of them will have an explanation of the events, and none of them will end at a "It Just was" statement unlike your God theory. (ie. How was God created? answer: He always was. But how can that be so? Answer: It just is, you have to take it on faith.) Yet in these theories there are still gaps in our understanding based on our limited information. However no Scientist in his right mind will ever tell you that because we don't have all the answers a theory is wrong. They will tell you that we are still working on filling those gaps. This is also unlike your theology which instead seeks to not fill those gaps with historical or provable information, but with blind faith and theology.
As an example of one of these theories I will choose the Multi-verse theory, an offshoot of the big bang. The multi-verse theory contends that there are practically infinite number of Universes. One for every particle in the universe and all with either the slightest of changes, or the most extreme of differences (example of slight: this particle here instead of there and every thing else the same. Example of drastic difference: Completely different laws of physics like one plus one equals four.) each of these universes acts separately and all of them are in an infinite cycle of loop where one may blow up after a google plux of years and then only live a life of 4 seconds and then a life of a million and then one of a second and then one of a higher number than google-plux and so on. All of them acting on there own and covering all realms of possibility. And because you are going to ask about their origins I have already explained many times on this forum alone the possibility of an infinite cycle that needs no beginning or end and explains its self but I will do so again.
In this universe we are governed by forces. One of these could be construed as a force of existence. That is to say the propelling positive force that causes there to be a one instead of a zero a something instead of nothing, This propelling force of existence provides a reasonable answer to causality without the need of giving it any sort of emotion feeling or any other misconstrued human idea.
|
|
|
Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 6, 2008 15:02:23 GMT -5
I agree with the logic of your statement. Still the information you base your logic upon is askew . God does not have any rivals. The devil is already defeated. The war is already won and the end is foretold in revelation.
Also your idea about evil is ,I would say, missing a step. God's creation, I would say, is working just the way he knew it would work. That is why he has taken certain precautions to make sure the end product is just what He wants. One thing you must remember God has given us humans freewill. I believe you know that freewill includes doing whatever we please. So evil is not the lack of perfections it is being outside the will of God. Thus being outside the will of God creates imperfections. If you are not going along with prefect (which is God) then you are imperfect. If you are wondering about why those who follow God are not perfect it is because we are not always doing everything in the will of God. That is why Jesus came down and died on the Cross because God knew what humans would want to do and that it would be impossible for us to do it on our own so he made it easy. (Something like perfections for dummies)
And my faith isn't blind. God does give us all reasons to believe. It is in our own perceptions of the truth, that clouds our view of the Living God.
Now I have a book that I am reading right now that can discuses science from one Christan's point of view better than I could ever do. It is called the Language of God written by Francis S. Collins. This gentlemen is one of the scientist that mapped the human genome. If you were ever interested in it go and pick it up and give it a read.
I really think what we all need to do is to consider what God's plan is. Is it to create a perfect world? Or is it something else? Like you said we don't know everything so I would be too quick to claim that God is not real. You are young and haven't seen all of this life. Even if you were 100 you still wouldn't have seen it all.
Thank you for taking out the time to write down your beliefs it is truly interesting
|
|
|
Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jan 10, 2008 10:41:42 GMT -5
Alright lets start with your first statement. I can concede that I have probably put this incorrectly it is not so much that your God has a rival, but that there is a rival to the God theory. Revelation, the devil, etc are unimportant when it comes to our conversation. This is because a Demi God and a book written "FBBB" for believers by believers, are not important really when considering the problems with the God theory or the proposed alternatives.
Your second statement is a bit nonsensical as it addresses none of the problems I have put forth directly. Evil as it were is defined properly as the absence of good (or if you believe in your theory the absence of God.) This by the way is the definition given by the Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church (the group that compiled the bible) there is no mis step here. God as omnipresent though seems to through for a loop the very notion of the idea of an absence. As for Jesus, Gods quick fix. It has not worked. So far it would seem that man has only gone further down hill since Jesus arrived. (most of the atrocity's are in his or Muhammad's name) I keep hearing this same line that God sent Jesus to help us but what has that helped. People are no better off than they were before. More pain and destruction have been caused because of him than there ever was without him. That is why I say that your Jesus has done a crap job. Look around you Guerrillasaint, I love this world with all my heart but It isn't exactly a specimen that belongs on the resume of an all knowing all powerful creator.
Now on two your third statement. First Jesus is dead he died and according to you was resurrected which makes him indeed so shouldn't it be the indeed God? Other wise this is actually a responsible scientific statement if you take the God out. One should look at the world in an unclouded view, this is very responsible. Kudos.
As for what Gods plan. "If" there were a God like the one you are proclaiming then to try and figure out what his plan is, is presumptuous and a sin. My statement is not a jumped to half arsed conclusion it has been thought out. Your God is a lie because he contradicts him self and because there are other theories with more proof that are better explained. God is not necessary therefore he dose not exist. Once again consider the possibility that God hates you or is evil. We don't know whether or not this is true and by the proof you have espoused it would be a statement that would be simple to orchestrate. In your next argument could you please oppose the idea directly.
I will take the time to read that book. As always it has been a pleasure. DOH
|
|
|
Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 23, 2008 17:48:33 GMT -5
I do not agree with the definition of the Catholic Church, if that is its definition of evil. You can be outside of the will of God which is what evil is.
God did send Jesus to help us but you must accept his help on a personal level. And the Fact that the world is getting worst doesn't negate the fact that Jesus came and did help the world. It is not Jesus that has done a bad job it is the people who choose to continue to live their lives the way they want, which makes things crappy. God has set up parameters in which he has chosen to work from the creation of the world. One of those is free will so he allows us the choice to follow or not. Most have chosen not to. Even those who have chosen have not been consistent. Our fallibility has no reflection on God because it is our choice to be the way we are.
God has never contradicted himself. He is more than consistent. I must say that my understanding of your explanations for why he isn't real isn't a good enough reason. Just because there is another theory on how the world got here that doesn't include God doesn't make him obsolete. If I told you the 5 was the answer to 2+2 that wouldn't make the truth that 2+2=4. The number four will exist not matter how many people believe it doesn't. The word four may no longer exist and the symbol 4 my no longer exist but the amount that four is will alway be the same not matter what. This is the same with God. Not matter how many theories show up it won't change the fact that God is alive and made us.
Another reason I don't believe you is because I have a relationship with him. Which anyone can have and which he wants with us. So the Fact that I know God and can tell you about God and how he is and functions means that He isn't obsolete. Obviously you don't have to believe me but I will stake my life on it and until the day I die will promise you that he is the real deal.
Oh yeah it is not a sin to wonder why God made us. He says ask questions. He made us curious. He wants us to know why we are here so it will lead to him. He wants us to wonder why he made us so that we have to seek him out. He says Everyone who asks receives, Everyone who seeks, finds. and the door is opened to everyone who knocks. (Luke 11:10). He leaves little question in our lives to wonder about so that is may lead to him. With each questions he saying come closer to me. I want to let you know about me. He wants you to know abut him. He isn't a God that is appalled when you ask him why he did something. Don't confuse God with a human. Anyone how says that God doesn't want you to ask question is lying. It say to many times in the bible that you can ask. How are you ever going to know anything if your don't ask?
You Know I have thought or what if God is evil. If He was then everyone's life would be miserable. There would be no joy anywhere. The word wouldn't exist the idea wouldn't be in anyone's language. There would be no love, no forgiveness, no acceptance, no peace. Everything would hurt. There wouldn't be a time without pain. Still we know some of these things. So if they exist then God must not be evil.
Well thank you again for pushing me. You have again given me things to praise God about. Have a great day.
|
|
|
Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jan 26, 2008 18:19:54 GMT -5
What you are not getting is that Jesus was supposed to have helped save every one. Not according to you help to supply the world with a religion which has raped civilization, killed, destroyed, and in every other way helped lead to the degradation of this planet and its people. If sending Jesus down here to preach is Gods way of helping he needs either a reality check or something because he has not helped at all. If any thing he has only helped to cause more destruction.
I have already explained why you probably believe that you are talking to God. I don't see a reason to explain it again.
There would have to be times of peace and goodness for any evil being to work his evil. If you torture some one it will have no meaning if they know no alternative. If there was never goodness or love or happiness in the world an evil god could never get his kicks because it would do nothing to torture some one who knows no alternative. There is no greater satisfaction to the evil than taking someone away from goodness.
By the way I can quote the bible too how about Romans chapter 9. In this chapter it states that God can hate and that no human can question it. It also states that even if a human does all he or she can it does not mean that God can or will absolve you. You could live your entire life correctly and if God does not want to help he dose not have too.
Once again God is a contradiction to himself and therefore cannot exist.
|
|
|
Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 27, 2008 22:49:27 GMT -5
Jesus is not a religion nor did he come to give us a religion. He came to bridge the gap that sin created in the relationship we have with God. Jesus is the fire exit built into a burning house. Or I can say it like this you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
God also does hate. The question is what does he hate and how does he hate. His hate is righteous hate. He hates pride and hypocrisy, double standards. He hates sin and what come out of it. (Due 12:31, Due 16:22, Mal 2:16) these are some more verses on things God hates.
It doesn’t say any where in Romans 9 that God can hate and no one can question it. It doesn’t even talking about God hating in Romans 9. The closest thing I can’t think you were talking about was Rom. 9:19
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? This is a hypothetical question raised by Paul to himself. Still the question is answered. And the hypothetical questioner is not rebuked for asking the question but for assuming that their sin is God’s fault. About being absolved. If you lived a blameless life then you wouldn’t need to be absovlde would you? Still Paul did discuss this in Romans 9:14 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
See the thing is god would be just not to give us a chance to say we are sorry. It is our choice to sin. So it would be just of him to let us all burn. Paul is talking about mercy which isn’t a right no matter what. God doesn’t have to give it to us. If only one person on earth received mercy God still would be merciful in that act and would be just in punishing the rest of us. This scripture is also a testament on why we can’t save ourselves. It is all God in the saving and we have nothing to so with our mercy. Just to let you know this is not a democracy God runs this. In His almighty wisdom and he has a plan and he knows man’s heart. So if he chooses to withhold his mercy it is for a reason. The fact that you get to know about this is mercy on his part. If you understand what I am talking about then you are truly blessed.
About the Evil God. I had thought about it and you are right there would have to be some good. That doesn’t mean that we have the privilege of experienced good. And I thought about it and even if we got some pleasure it would be followed always by something far worst. It would obliterate the happy feeling. So when any good things came around you can expect far worst things. There would be no comfort in that pain either. The thought of finding peace in the good times would be overshadowed by the fear of the bad that will come along.
God never contradicted himself it is your understanding of God that is flawed.
|
|