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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jul 30, 2007 13:07:08 GMT -5
This goes out to all the theists on the board. I would like to challenge you all to give me your strongest explanations of gods existence. I will attempt to prove you wrong, as well as give you a different more though understanding of this world we live in. Hopefully after we have our discussion you all will be a bit more compassionate towards your fellow human beings.
Ciao
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Post by necroshine on Jul 31, 2007 16:32:11 GMT -5
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 3, 2007 20:54:40 GMT -5
When I was around five God told me He was God and I have believed ever since. Also I have conversations with him and yes he does talk back because he has been talking to me since I was little. My prayers are answered. Not a no, yes or maybe either.
Peace
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Aug 3, 2007 23:02:44 GMT -5
Necroshine
Do you really want me to attack that, I mean I will take the time out to do it if you want, but I am actually being serious with my challenge.
Guerrillasaint
Ok I have asked you on a different thread recently as to how and when god came to see you. When you were five is good but I am looking for more along the lines of were you awake, asleep, in class looking out the window kinda day dreaming, were you sitting on the floor playing with crayons. etc. God talks to you, ok how do you know your not talking with your self. As I am sure you don't actually hear a voice that I could listen too with my ears, you obviously have this connection inside your head. Which means you could be talking with your self and be misleading your self that you are talking to God. I will go into more detail when you have treated the first of my question on how god reveled him self to you. Thank you
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 4, 2007 17:21:55 GMT -5
I was in the den/TV room of my parent’s house down stairs. I believe my mom was in the kitchen. I was just standing there, from what I can remember. And yes it is strange but I get this vision of a balloon with a bear in it. (This appeared to the left from of me.) Like I can see it and then at that moment I understand that there is a God. I go ok and go about what I was doing. Super strange I know.
One reason I know it isn't me because for one thing we have different personalities. God has a way of telling it to me plan just like I need it. You know if someone else talked to me that way I think I would be offended, but He has a way of saying it that make it ok. Also He tells me things I just don't know. He also suggests the hardest things for me to do. Things I don't want to do in a million years. He puts the mirror up to my face and shows me the true me. He doesn’t shy away from those hard statements that many people shy way from. He isn’t afraid to tell me about myself. Now I am a very thoughtful person. I think to myself a lot, but I can definitely tell the difference between God and myself. This is because I have a relationship with him. If you would like I could tell you some of the converstations we have had.
Peace
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Aug 5, 2007 13:19:42 GMT -5
It seems to me to be a simple case of you talking to you. Of course there is that matter of you not knowing what is stated but repressive memory or the fact that you are accessing parts of your mind you don't normally access in times of extreme duress would easily account for it. As for the Child thing, ok so one day for no special purpose you believe in God, things just clicked. This kind of working in ones mind is not that special. If you had been being told by your parents about this or even if you saw it on TV in passing it doesn't matter your mind can just click like that. For instance my mother was teaching me how to read, with hooked on phonics if I remember correctly, I hated it and did not want to learn so i ran to my room and cried my self to sleep. That night when every one was asleep I came awake and every thing clicked, I went out to the den and studied the tape until I was sleepy. Thanks to this I had a doctors level reading ability by 6th grade (unfortunately my spelling has always sucked). Some times our minds just work thing out. It is not God my friend just your head. thank you
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 5, 2007 18:09:51 GMT -5
This is a very hard topic to talk about because what I have told you before is a boiled down version of what happened because I don't like to go into much detail when explaining things. Truth is sometimes I just don't like explaining things.
You want me to explain the spiritual. That is hard. I promise you that it isn't me talking to myself. Still it is on me to explain to you why it isn't so I will try and do this. I am not a salesman and I don’t want to be so I not going to try. I know it isn't up to me to make you believe it is just up to me to tell you. So I am going to try again to explain myself in more detail. Sorry for this, but I going to try and let you into my mind. Please don't pay attention to the clutter in the corners and stay close you may get lost.
It is night time and I am lying in my former bedroom it is my senior year of school. I don't remember how the conversation, but I am pondering this giving your life to Christ thing. I mean if I just live for him when am I going to get to live. When am I going to get to do the things I want to do? God told me that if I do His will everything will be taken care of. I was like, man I don't see how I still have a life in all that. All I am going to be doing is His will. Where is the fun in that when do I get to purse the dreams that I want to pursue? He told me the same thing. He has my back I don't have to worry about taking care of myself. I still though it was selfish of Him to want me to not live the life He gave me. Now I didn't say that exactly but still that is the jist of it. So I never came to the agreement that I would do His will at that point in time. I still believed in Him as my savior but lord not so much.
This next one is more recent. I unhappily work at a fast food place now. I am not a very social smile on my face all the time type of person. Now I am not rude but the lest amount of word I have to utter the better. Also the less someone else talks to me the better as well. So I guess you can call me antisocial. Still I get the “joy” of working up front with all the lovely people who think that I am either dumb or uneducated or a high school student which still makes me dumb. You are neither a person nor someone to truly care about. (Well not everyone thinks that way but I believe that is the general belief held by Americans) getting back to the subject. So this gentleman comes in and gives me major attitude. He attacks me right out of the box about the quantity of service and how no one ever get anything right. This gets me really hot and if I wasn't the person I am now I think I would be out of a job. Still I take this man’s difficult and strange order and get it wrong. Which allows him to complain some more. So after this unhappy man leaves with his food. I God back over something I learned just a few days ago about loving your enemy. Now I had no thoughts about making this man my nemesis but he wasn't my best friend either. So I go, “God you want me to love him?” He tells me that “I loved you even when you are wrong.” And believe it or not I have been wrong in my life. Well I didn't like that statement. I kicked a box because I don't want to be nice to that guy. He was evil! Well I got the joy of serving this man more than once and surprisingly he has gotten nicer. He actually apologized for being difficult. Crazy.
Aright I am going to give your eyes a rest on this one. I was going to church on day and the week before I had given a large about of money considering to my non-existent income so I asked God, “since I gave a lot of money last time do I have to give some now?” God said, “since I blessed you yesterday do I have to bless you today?” I was like “cool blooded. God has jokes.”
And there are more but I have made you read too much and I apologize. Still If I have to I will type till my hands bleed. I will figure out some other way to explain it. It isn't me talking to myself. It isn't that simple.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 1, 2007 17:52:10 GMT -5
Dear Guerrillasaint I still think that you are wrong. I personaly have the same type of thing happening to me every day. I have my lower weaker self saying one thing (no I am tierd and dont need to be doing homework!) and then my higher self says (yes well you may be tierd but your goal is to become more educated so get on it.) The only difference here is that your higher mind has been enterpreted as the voice of God. Me I understand that it is all a conversation going on in my own head. As for why your God talks like that well you can only read the bible so many times before some part of you begins to speek like the guys in it. ( I understand this, when I read Shakespear I have the same problem, in about 5 min I become a victorian.) No it is not simple, but it is still you. The real difference between our minds is that your higher rational mind has a God complex.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Oct 4, 2007 11:33:11 GMT -5
I can understand how you would think that. You don't know Him so how would you understand how the Lord talks? My belief and my relationship with God can not be full understood unless you have experienced the Holy Spirit. Also the Holy Spirit is even higher and more righteous than my higher self. He demands of me more than I demand of myself.
This matter of my relationship with Jesus is a spiritual matter and it is hard to understand when you look at it from a worldly view. It can not be explain this way. So I guess my explanation is not a good one, forgive me. Gomen nasai
So I guess the first thing is to empty out what you think you know the truth is. Then truly look at the world from a different view point. Look at all the wonderful things it holds. Look at the vastness of the stars. The perfect the planets are position. The way organization drives all the things in this world. Then ask yourself. If things are by mere accident why is there such organization in everything?
Take a look at the Bible. (Yeah I know what you all think about it.) Still look at it from unprejudiced eyes. If you don't understand it then seek the truth about the passage. You can ask me. Or you can ask someone you trust. Or you can ask a Christian you trust then ask an atheist that you trust. Truly seek the truth not the truth that is convent to you and your way of thinking. Step outside of yourself and look. Take your opinions and your prejudice out of the equation and really try to find him.
One way to truly find the lord is to honestly seek him. If you seek Him in your heart you will find Him. If you have no desire to find Him and you are just challenging me just for the sake of argument then every thing I tell you will be wrong in your eyes. You will be able to see some fault in my argument because you really don't want to be proven wrong.
You will never be able to find the lord if you are lazy, or if you are not willing to step outside of your box. I know who God is and if you really want to see him He will show you his glory.
Well good luck at school. I will pray that the rest of the semester goes well for you. I believe you said you were in graduate school. I know that is tough so good luck. ;D
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 18, 2007 9:47:38 GMT -5
Dear Guerrillasaint
Well actually I am still an undergrad but thanks for the luck ill need it. As for Re reading the bible, I have done this several times while being guided by priests, I have even gone to a few bishops to ask for help. At my school I have more theologians running though here than you can shake a stick at. I have had more than 3 courses specifically on the subject of God and the bible. Also I have had numerous courses in philosophy covering Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Augustine, Pope John Paul 2, as well as a few others. Not knowing the issues you are bringing is not the problem. It is ever so simply the weight of evidence you and yours are providing is negligible while ours (de facto Atheists etc) have vast amounts of evidence that we have shown you time and time again.
I have said it before and I suppose it must be said again, If you go to look for something (God, Alla, YHWH, Jesus, Odin, The Flying spaghetti monster or the All powerful Pink Unicorn.) You will find it. If you look hard enough, believe strong enough that something is there you will always find it. Your mind will make it so. Our minds are very able to distract us, or even provide us with information that is not there at all. (there are diseases based on this) The point I make is that your higher mind will of course ask more than you ask of you. In most people the lower half of the mind is the one getting the most use. The higher mind comes in when necessary. You are not to blame but you must come to understand that you are really doing no more than deluding your self.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Nov 29, 2007 16:09:04 GMT -5
What makes you confident that you are right. You say you don't have any proof that there is a God. So I am going to assume that you have no proof that there isn't a God. Have you ever considered that your mind is drawing the wrong conclutions. If there is only one truth then you have more possiblities of being wrong than right.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Dec 4, 2007 9:48:09 GMT -5
I am confident that I am correct in this because of my supporting arguments. The physical world also backs up my statement as I have shown you. I have seen that it is possible that I could be wrong, but I do not think that the chance of that is reasonably high. However that is why I said that I am a De Facto Atheist as defined by Dawkins. This of course means that I am not at 100 percent but that I am about 99 percent sure so there for i consider the possibility negligible. As to my not having proof of God well you are almost right here. Whereas it is true that I do not have concrete facts that refute your Gods existence, and I am not foolish enough to try the argument of disproof based upon no evidence of existence, I do however have the fact that your God is unnecessary. This could be seen as a proof of Gods in existence. If I can show (which I have ) that God is unnecessary then he cannot exist. This is based in that an all powerful being the like of which you ascribe to God cannot have a rival. If it is possible to explain the universe without him then he has no purpose and does not exist.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Dec 8, 2007 14:12:28 GMT -5
ok show me
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Dec 8, 2007 21:30:20 GMT -5
So that I don't waist either yours or my time can you be more specific in what you would like me to show you?
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Post by guerrillasaint on Dec 9, 2007 22:11:19 GMT -5
Thank you for taking in regard my time I would like your argument on how you explain the universe with out God. Why you think God has a rival or why he can't have one.
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