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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jul 30, 2007 13:39:20 GMT -5
Dear friends
I have stated in my last two threads that I feel that Theists specifically monotheists are uncaring toward their fellow man. I will tell you why now. Any person who declares that they believe in a god who's end wish is to bring about calamity and destruction, annihilating all the world and universe, cannot have compassion for his fellow man. This of course includes any person who bevies in a religion who's ending stance is that Armageddon is a good thing. These people who wish for their religion to hold true and for the destruction of all human kind and the very universe of which we live cannot possibly love or have compassion. To some of you this may sound very harsh however my reasoning is as follows: Love begins in loving ones self. Then in seeing that ones neighbor is like ones self and worth loving a person begins to love them too. With out loving ones self a person cannot love, as they have not completed the prerequisite of loving them self. Selfless love is nothing but slavery to the masses and must be viewed as hatred against one self. Giving of ones self for another is an act of love only if that person who is doing the giving views his life as important. Without a sense of self, giving of ones life for another is meaningless. To come full circle a person cannot fully love them self if they would give their life up for their God without a shred of evidence as to its existence. To give up that which obviously is, and throw all hope in a wish is insanity. To give up the warmth of a sun that can be seen and known by the work of human hands, for faith in a religion that professes the ideology of a more rewarding life after death, is to surrender your only life to the cold hands of death. This is not love but a hope for death and wish for all humanity to join in, and feel the bleakness of Oblivion.
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Post by necroshine on Jul 31, 2007 16:34:55 GMT -5
"Compassionate theist" is my new oxymoron
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 3, 2007 20:50:53 GMT -5
So how do you show love to your neighbor? Do you love all people or just the ones nice to you?
I am not look forward to the end of times, and all of mankind is not going to obliterated. That is an over exaggeration.
How do you know that I am an uncompassionate person? How can you calm to know my personality by your generalization of a misrepresentation and misunderstanding of my beliefs? I am not going to clam that all atheist are a certain way by your lack of belief in anything.
Welcome back.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Aug 3, 2007 22:52:15 GMT -5
Guerrillasaint
In answer to your question I love all my fellow human beings on some level even if it is only at the very base form of them being human. Then at some level I love all that which lives as it is a form of life. This is based off of my general love of life rather than any supernatural necessity.
Oh contrair, you see if you have labeled your self as Christian then you do believe that it is Gods will that all shall be obliterated. If you are a Christian then you believe that this after life in the bosom of God will be far better than any thing that you could ever experience her on earth. If you are Christian then you believe that Gods will is to be done and that not but joy is to be expressed at its doing. Also you believe that it should be not only looked forward too but aided in what ever way it needs to be. Are these not correct? If any one of these is correct than I am correct and you do wish for the end of existence. You just don't want to say it for fear of bad PR.
As to your last statement I am not making an attack based upon you as a person, but on a set of believes that you simply happen to currently uphold. If you believe me to be incorrect on my interpretation of Christian Philosophy then please point out exactly where I am wrong. I have made this statement upon reasonable deduction. If you see a fault in my reason please point it out. Oh and if you would be so kind please be exact. Thank you
PS) when I say exact I mean two things: I mean make your argument based in some reasoning, that is more than just your opininon. Second Have some reputable basis for your claims.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 4, 2007 17:42:02 GMT -5
Oh contraire, contraire; D Actually heaven will be on earth and those who believed in Jesus will live in the city God has built here on earth. The earth will still be here and so will people. (Rev 21-22)And hell is being with out God and any of his protection with the devil in hell. Then you get eternity to remember all the chances you had. That is why I believe there will be nashing of teeth. No protection for the demons and their evil or even the most evil people who lived on earth. Umm What? I know is God spread the word to all those around you. Not to try and make the end of times come sooner. Where are you getting this information from? ( quit listing to Lupe Fiasco )
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Aug 4, 2007 19:59:25 GMT -5
1) And hell is being with out God and any of his protection with the devil in hell. Then you get eternity to remember all the chances you had. 2) Not to try and make the end of times come sooner. Where are you getting this information from? ( quit listing to Lupe Fiasco ) (numerics added) 1) Eternity for a lifetime of disagreement via free will that God gave you? That is a horribly unjust punishment for any person. The fact that Christianity touts this view is, in itself, despicable. 2) Why do you think Isreal was given to them in 1948? Try this article on for size: seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003087927_theend27.html
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Aug 5, 2007 13:11:00 GMT -5
While I applaud your having an argument that makes some rational sense you are incorrect on your General information. Actually what has been reveled according to the prophetic teachings is that your Jesus will return and will be a source of judgment upon all human kind. All who choose to not follow in his light shall perish unto the fires of hell of their own choosing. You also don't seem to understand that one only goes to hell if they choose too. Your god in its forgiving nature forgives all sinners so long as they do not do their sins with perfect knowledge of the word of god. - SO enough of the mashing of teeth he did me wrong so he deserves it bull. Now moving along, after Jesus supposed Judgment of humanity all those who love the lord shall be whisked off to heaven, every one else will face hell on earth. After the destruction is over the lord will return a third time (Holy Trinity) and will rule over the world and those who have come to know his grace for one thousand years. After that the world will end.
Only those that believe in this Deity will be saved and so every thing else will be destroyed simply because your god doesn't like it. These are the prophesies. This apocalyptic view of all who don't believe what I believe should perish and be eternally damned is why you all are not in any way compassionate. Were you compassionate you would weep for the people you now see ad irrefutably sinful and would instead of rejoicing at their demise you would instead appeal to your god and try to save every one. You are not in any way compassionate because you wish total oblivion and eternal pain upon those who do not believe what you do.
For instance now that he is dead and gone lets use the guise of some one who is believed to be inherently evil. Adolf Hitler will do. He died after terminating the lives of millions of people. Ive no doubt that the majority of Christians if not all would believe that he deserved to be cast down in hell forever, also that especially in his case one should rejoice in his being cast down if it were so. However I don't think this is so of a truly compassionate person. One who is compassionate dose not wish for eternal punishment for any one. I love every one at the least in that they are human like me and worth loving. Upon this love I hope that Hitler in his last moments understood what he had done wrong and was truly sorry. I also hope that while he put that gun to his head, that he found peace. ( I also think that he chose a particularly cowardly way out.) Still even though he should have gone to the firring squad instead I still hope he found some shred of peace. It is because you cant understand this kind of thinking and wish for every one who dose not believe in your God to suffer for it for an eternity that I call you not compassionate.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 5, 2007 19:01:10 GMT -5
So you think I rejoice the demise of others . That is why I am talking to you now about God cause I just want you to go to hell right? I just like to be abused it’s a lot of fun! No! The reason I am here is to let you know! Still I can't make you do a thing. If I could you would all believe you would all get it! The body of Christ goes to the most dangerous places in the world to spread the word. The ones that really get it leave their lives to tell people about God. I don't want you to go to hell but it’s not my choice. And like it or not if you don't trust God you won't. I could be doing something else right now. I could be lost in a book. I could be washing my hair. No, this is a much more important use of my time. And yes shame on me that I am not walking down the street with a sign pasted to my back saying the end of times is near. I should be doing more! You said this is based on a belief systems right. Well it does say to spread the word to the end of the earth. Don't you sit there and tell me that I just can't wait for everyone to go to Hell! That really pisses me off. I am not perfect and no I don't float on any clouds but am not sitting here plotting for the end of times. Heck we don't have much time left and I still got people to tell about Christ. I still have work to do and I don't have time to waste trying and make things go faster than they already do. Don't sit there and try and clump me in your misunderstanding of who I am or what I believe in. You can judge me and my religion all you want but just to let you know I not going to sit here and let you tell me that me and my church are bunch of uncompassionate people sitting in our houses waiting for heaven. Screw that. Do you even know what I do with my time?! You know what you are wrong just way wrong. And I will be back tomorrow to talk about it some more. Have a great day. I am glad you wrote this crazy untrue statement I think I will revisit it ever time I forget what I am doing here Peace
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Post by necroshine on Aug 6, 2007 6:54:07 GMT -5
If your god is going to send over 2/3s of people to hell simply because they don’t believe in jesus then he isn’t a god. He is a tyrant and has a child like mentality. Do you believe that all jews will go to hell? how is this in any way a just god that would do this? But you say that god is all loving. If this god is all loving then he couldn’t send anyone he made to hell, not even the devil. If god is all knowing then he knew what the devil was going to do before he made him, then the devil deserves to be in heaven just like everyone does. Could you put your child in hell for any reason? I hope not. How about putting your child in hell just because he doesn’t believe in god? What if you child turns to Hinduism and lives a great life and helps people around him like Gondi did? Does your child deserve to go to hell? do you think Gondi deserves to go to hell for just not believing in god while doing great things with his life? Do you find that god is just in doing this? I don’t. I think god is just a child throwing a temper tantrum because someone doesn’t like him. Do you think all christens deserve heaven just on the notion that they believe in god no matter how small of an effort they put into it? How about a murder on death row that finds jesus right before they die? Do they deserve heaven? See your god is a child. Nothing he does has any logic in it. To how he created everything to how he is going to destroy us again because we will be evil again. He has already judged us again and hasn’t even given us a chance. Your god is a child and is unjust. Maybe that is why he appears to you as a child’s toy. It does seem fitting to me.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Aug 6, 2007 7:27:42 GMT -5
Guerrillasaint
Perhaps I have been a bit over zealous, that can happen if you do this and watch westburo baptist Church at the same time. I should not have attacked you directly, for this I apologies.
Now then let me redirect my true argument back toward the intended target. As Necoshine so wonderfully put it you and your fellow Christians believe that 2/3s of people will be going to hell because of no other reason than their disbelief in God. Now then as this IS a truth, let me direct a question: How can you consider your self compassionate if you would follow a God who can be this horrible. How can he be all loving? It makes no sense. As you people believe that your faith makes you who you are, that it directs your lives, if the God that you unquestionably follow is unconscionable than you yourselves must be therefor understood as the same.
Now let me also tell you even though I was watching Westburo Baptist, I was also watching a thing on Mother Teresa, and Gandi. So don't think that I am focusing only on the bad.
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Post by necroshine on Aug 6, 2007 9:46:35 GMT -5
It’s a sad person that would punish someone that doesn’t view the world in the same way they do. You would think that in gods unlimited knowledge of all things he would know that not everyone will think the same way. Why then would you punish someone for doing something you know is going to happen? I have no right to punish my child for breaking something that I didn’t put up out of his reach. I’m the adult and I have the responsibility to keep the child out of harm and put up the things that the child shouldn’t get into. If you smoked and didn’t want your child to get your sigs then you put them up. If you allow your child to smoke then you’re the bad parent not the kid, correct? then how is god without blame when he punishes adam and eve for eating an apple? It is gods responsibility to look over his children. God was not around when the devil was tempting the humans. that would be like you going to the store and leaving your child at home with your worst enemy in the house. Would you even consider doing that? that would make you a bad parent wouldn’t it? But that is exactly what god did. It is gods fault that all this happened if you think god is real. There is no way around it. Adam and eve didn’t know right from wrong so they couldn’t have known what they was doing was wrong even if god told them not to do it. They didn’t know right from wrong just like a child doesn’t know. Let me put it like this. If you told your child that he could not play outside today for what ever reason, then the child’s father came in latter and told him to go outside then it would not be the child’s fault because he was told it was ok to do this. The child is without blame. It’s a child. Do you get what I’m saying? If you are innocent then you need to be treated that way. It would be unjust to do anything different. Plus on the same note god is not consistent, if god tells you to do something and someone else tells you different you should do what god tells you to do. Can you agree with that? then what about the story about the person (I don’t recall the name) that god told to kill his son for him? Then an angel tells him to stop. This was ok with god. Why? Also with this guy he did know right from wrong and knew that you should do what god tell you and not what someone else says. You have the same thing happening but you have two different out comes.
you might not rejoice at the demise of others but you are ok with it. You think god is just in doing this. I do not and I can not follow someone who would. Why don’t you question god why would he put most of the people he loves in hell. why don’t you question why if god knows before hand what is going to happen then why punish the ones for doing exactly what he knows is going to happen. They don’t deserve any punishment. I don’t trust god because god hasn’t showed himself to be trust worthy. He has turned his back on his chosen people, the jews. How is that any way for a god to act? But yet you might not realize this. You need to ask yourself is this a way for a god to act? What exactly did the jews do to deserve god to turn his back on them? It can not be because they killed jesus. God told them that Moses was to deliverer them from harm. Then another guy comes along saying he is the true son of god. How are they to act? Is isn’t something a true and just god should do. If someone stepped up again telling you not to follow jesus anymore and you should follow them you would reject that person. You would call him crazy. But does god have the right to send you to hell for not following this new jesus? This is exactly what happened to the jews. Its not fare to them and god is one sick bastard for doing this. Do you agree? How are they to know that jesus was the new savor? To them he was just another nutcase. Just like you would view someone today that said they are the new son of god. Think about the issue with some depth before you just write off a whole race of people as evil and deserving of hell.
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snafui
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 169
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Post by snafui on Aug 6, 2007 16:55:12 GMT -5
It is gods responsibility to look over his children. God was not around when the devil was tempting the humans. What devil? ps why do you guys keep saying 2/3rds? Revelation says only 144,000... to some they believe that only the 144,000 will enter Heaven:
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 7, 2007 18:22:18 GMT -5
Yes, my God is an all loving God. Still, your concept of a loving God and mine are different. Correct me if I am wrong, you believe that if God truly loves everyone then that love should void out any consequences He has set for a certain wrong action. Even if God says that they are wrong, and He has made the punishment known then His love should look the other way and just allow anyone to act as they please without any repercussions. If this is how God's love was to work he would be a liar and a total flake. He would be a weak god not worth following. He would have no integrity and what he had to say would mean nothing.
Let’s look at the big picture. God loves everyone no matter what our actions are. Still, God does not love all the actions everyone takes from time to time. As a follower of Christ I believe that God exist and I have put my faith in Him. I acknowledged my sins and repented of them. When this happened, as I believe you all know, I became a new creation because the blood of Christ washed my sins away. With the acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice you could say I am continually being washed of my sins. With this God can now dwell within me making my body a temple.
The reason behind Jesus’s sacrifice is to be able to have a relationship with his creation. That is the whole reason this life is happening. The meaning of life is to live a life with God. The only way to live with God is to be sinless. Since we are not sinless we can't live with Him unless we acknowledge the gravity of our sin and the immensity of God through Jesus who washes away our sins. That is where things get sketch. People are under the misconceptions that this life is it, and the only reason it exists is for us to create some meaning in anyway we choose. That is wrong even though it sounds good. God didn't create us to ignore Him. So if you go about life living for yourself then in the end it will just be you and yourself. You had not alliance or acceptance of God in the first place so why be angry when you are cast aside. The Devil didn't want to be with God he wanted to be over God. He was just thinking about himself so it will just be him and himself.
Also I don’t think you get how big an issue this sin thing is. Sin is not just disobedience but it is a tumor in God’s creation. Our wrong doings hurt not just ourselves, but also this entire earth. So what God has to do is cut out the tumor. He has to protect what is good. Necro you asked me If I would send my child to hell. Well I can’t do that. Still if my child is being a tumor in my family by tearing us apart and hurting other members of the family then they couldn’t stay. They would have to leave. This wouldn’t negate the fact that I loved them. Still I have a duty to protect my family even if a part of it is hurting another. It is better for the family as a whole to have this hurtful person out. If my child were to repent and became a loving member of the family again then they could come back, but not until that time. This is the same thing with God and His creation. He has given us all the chance to be apart of His family. Like I said you have to be sinless to hang with God and He has made provisions so that we may be able to do so even though we are not. Still, if you don’t do that then there is no way that you could possible do it on your own or Jesus wouldn’t have needed to died.
As a follower of Christ it is a part of our mission here on earth to draw men unto Christ. If you believe only to save your bacon then no I am not sure how much compassion you have for people. If you don’t evangelize because for some strange reason you have a set number or people who are going to be saved and you don’t want to go over that then you have missed the point. A life of a Christians should be to serve; to find greatness in the service of the Lord.
Peace P.S. yeah really what is up with this 2/3s thing?
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Post by necroshine on Aug 7, 2007 19:11:02 GMT -5
Hell isn’t punishment. It is torment. It is not there to punish us. If it was we could learn our lesions and be brought out of hell. god will be eternally tormented in hell. this is not punishment. You said you could not put your child in hell. I thought so. Why is that? because you love your child with all your being. You would rather die instead of your child. You would kill anyone in a second if you thought they was going to hurt your child. You would take away its pain if you could. You teach your kids lessons in life you do not punish them forever. Once your child shows you that they are sorry for what they did you forgive them and everything is better. It hurts you deeply to see any harm come to your child and more so the pain you cause your child. This is the love of a parent for its child. This doesn’t mean that there is no rules or consequences life is full of them but what it does mean is that you would never ever put your child in hell for one day or a year little along forever. That is why you say you can not do it. But for god. He has no problem seeing his children in pain and torment I expect to have rules. But I also expect to be able to get forgiveness even in the afterlife. God gives no jew, muslum, hindu, or any other person who was raised to believe in a false god. You would think in gods ultimate knowledge some would be brainwashed to believe in a different god by no fault of their own. Only because they was born to people who don’t believe in god. Your all loving god is anything but loving. And that is what is up with the 2/3 of the world. If you look at the % of people who say they belong to any religion you will see that about 1/3 is christen. So god will send about 2/3s to hell unless you believe what snafui said. 144,000 that would mean no one else is going to heaven its full now.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Aug 13, 2007 17:17:30 GMT -5
God Has already died for us. Still since He has given us free will He can't make us choose to follow Him. I can try to teach my child the right way that doesn't mean they will follow my instructions.
If God had no issue with sending us to hell then I don't think Jesus would have come and died for our sins.
There will be plenty of people who are born to parents that believe in different gods that will come to faith in Christ. Everyone has a chance to know Him. It may not manifest isn't way like is does in our western society but I believe that everyone has an equal opportunity to go to Heaven or Hell. I have a friend in Pakistan that I Muslim. He was raised that way but I have shared the word of God with him. It is his choice to choose which way to go.
Well you guys have a great day. Sorry it took so long to write back.
Peace
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