Greetings from a Theist

[Beniah]

Greetings all!

I wandered to this board to check out the other view point. I really enjoyed some of the posts I've read so far, and I look forward to contributing my humble opinion.

Anyways, I'm a theist; I guess you could best describe me as a Evangelical, Bible Believing Christian. OoooOoo. Yes one of those "yucky" evangelicals! I attend a Non-Denominational Church in Southern California. Don't worry thought, I'm quite accustomed to having conversations with atheists, agnostics, and other thoughtful skeptic types, so I won't spout out the usual "Christian" insults and what have you. I can totally respect your opinion, and I hope you all will be able to respect mine.

Well I look forward to many interesting conversations, and I really need something to make the day go by faster while I'm here at work! Ha! Don't tell my boss!!

[droskey]

Welcome to the board, Beniah. We look forward to your contributions.

[Superhappyjen]

Yes welcome

[vertigo]

Hi Beniah. I am new myself, although I am an atheist. I try to be unemotional when discussing things, and to treat people fairly at all times.

If I may ask a question, are you a sinner? If so, are you glad that God (Jesus) has afforded you his protection? Also, I don't understand your sig. If you would, please tell us why the world (life) made sense when you surrendered your opinion?

[AuntieSocial]

Welcome to the board Beniah (and vertigo).

I hope you enjoy participating here. We try to keep things civil, and it usually stays that way.

[vertigo]

Thanks, AuntieSocial.

To continue the (admittedly limited) introduction, I often see that some atheists enjoy having fun at other people's expense. As such, it seems that some atheists should rather be called 'anti-religionists' or perhaps 'non-conformists'.

It is my purpose to treat people as fairly as possible. Tolerance is not some great art or cause, but merely realising that other people make their own decisions. You don't have to think those decisions are smart to respect their right to make them.

I think it is far better to be completely honest in how you give your opinion, than to 'say the right thing'. If you think something is stupid, that is the answer you should give, along with your reasons for thinking that.

There is value in honest discussion and debate, and I aim to promote that wherever I can.

[solidsquid]

Welcome to the board Beniah.

...I won't spout out the usual "Christian" insults and what have you. I can totally respect your opinion...

I cannot speak for everyone, but for myself, this is all I have ever really asked for regarding my viewpoints.

...and I hope you all will be able to respect mine.

Will do.

[Beniah]

Thank you all for the warm reception! Much love from me to you all as well.

vertigo said:

If I may ask a question, are you a sinner? If so, are you glad that God (Jesus) has afforded you his protection?

Yes I'm a sinner, a sinner saved by the Grace of God. Am I glad that Jesus has afforded me His protection? Well I'm not sure I understand the question..maybe I do, but think you are trying to ask something else. Well if you are talking about protection, just in the general sense, of course. But God doesn't "protect" us from the same things that happen to non-believers in life. The rain falls on the just and unjust alike.

And about my sig, it's a line from a John Reuben song. He's a Christian Hip Hop artist. I just think it's a snazy song. But I mean I guess it relates to me in the "peace that passes all understanding" that I have as a believer in Christ. I don't know, either that or I'm just a sucker for that song.

[vertigo]

But God doesn't "protect" us from the same things that happen to non-believers in life. The rain falls on the just and unjust alike.

What does God give you, other than his 'saving grace', by which I mean entry to heaven? Are there any other benefits? Does this peace you feel come from him?

[Beniah]

vertigo said:

What does God give you, other than his 'saving grace', by which I mean entry to heaven? Are there any other benefits? Does this peace you feel come from him?

Well materially what does God give me, more than say someone who doesn't believe in God? Nothing, less probably. The Christian life is not "easy" in the least bit. As a matter of fact, it's probably tougher, at least it is to me. Tougher in the sense that the "world" is opposite to the teachings of Christ, and to what I believe. Nobody persecutes a person who doesn't say things that are opposite mainstream thought. True Biblical Christian thought is definitely opposite that. But this is clearly taught in the Bible, that the Christian life is not an easy one. We are told that we will be rejected, persecuted, even physically attacked for our faith. Honestly, it's not a very appealing thing to be told that people will hate you for your belief in God. But in my eyes, there is no other choice. I've use reason to come to the belief in God. Now I walk by faith in what the Lord calls me to do. And strangely through all this, yes, Jesus DOES give me a peace that passes all understanding.

I hope you can see a little more of where I am coming from, but enough about me already! What about you man? Care to share a little bit about your life? Your basic overall world view? How did you come to the belief about God that you hold now, etc? I'm very interested in listening more then yakking all day about myself, so please, share!!

[Maverick]

Greetings Beniah! I respect your interest in checking out another viewpoint. Even if you don't agree with someone, I believe it is good to know the opposing viewpoint beyond the stereotypes and general assumptions.

Beniah

Anyways, I'm a theist; I guess you could best describe me as a Evangelical, Bible Believing Christian. OoooOoo. Yes one of those "yucky" evangelicals! I attend a Non-Denominational Church in Southern California. Don't worry thought, I'm quite accustomed to having conversations with atheists, agnostics, and other thoughtful skeptic types, so I won't spout out the usual "Christian" insults and what have you. I can totally respect your opinion, and I hope you all will be able to respect mine.

The only thing that makes other evangelicals (and other atheists) "yucky" is when the fail to live up to your last sentence. I think this is an admirable approach and I look forward to engaging in conversation with you on these boards.

From an administrative standpoint, I make it my goal to make sure we maintain a level of respect on these boards. But, I can confidently assure you that I haven't had to moderate mutual respect on these boards very often. My mods can back me up on that too.

Again, welcome and let me know if there's anything you need.

[Beniah]

Thanks Maverick. Seems like you guys run a pretty "tight ship" here. Haha. Just kidding, but honestly, this is one of the best websites of this kind I've seen. I'm really enjoying posting here, even though it's only been like 2 days or so.

[vertigo]

At Beniah's request, I will tell my story.

South Africa has many religious people. In fact, atheists are rather rare. I always had the impression that atheists were guileless people that enjoyed hurting others, intentionally trying to make fun of people's religion. I thought that it was a stupid thing to do to ignore Christianity, when there was a good chance it was true.

I tried my utmost to fit in with Christians, but I always felt different to them. I guess the problem was that I didn't want to convince myself, incase I was wrong. I figured that if Christianity was so important, it was too important to make sure I was doing the right thing.

As a result, while I did pray, I always waited for some sign that God was out there. Again, I didn't want to be mistaken. So when something good happened, and people said 'thank god', I always had the thought, 'can I be sure that it was really God who helped?' I didn't doubt that God was there to help people, but I wanted to find situations that I knew God had influenced. I know now what it was that I wanted. I was longing for evidence. I wanted to remove that last seed of doubt. I wanted it very much.

I wanted to find peace. I wanted to be saved. But I always had that last little bit of doubt. At the same time I had fear. I wasn't sure what God wanted me to do. I felt that there must be some purpose for me, but I couldn't figure out what it was.

The other problem for me was that I didn't get along with Christians. The majority of Christians I saw were very well behaved in church, but then in the week were back to there normal ways. That wasn't the worst of it. What was worse was that these people, that I could see weren't living up to the Christian ideal, believed that they were saved. In fact they 'knew' they were saved. I always had the feeling that Christianity is a way of life, and if you are going to profess that you are a Christian, then you should try to live like one. These Christians I saw didn't.

There were some that I thought did live in the right way, but it was very few. To this day, I have only met two that I consider to be genuine Christians, who live as God wants them to live.

I figured that these other Christians were using Christianity to feel good, but not trying to live that way. They were fake. I grew to hate such people, as they were most often the people who would try to tell me how to live. What right did they have, even in God's name, to tell me what to do, when they weren't living the life themselves?

So I tried my best to be a good person and to discover how to be a proper Christian, not a fake. I didn't want to fall into the trap that these other people fell into, the trap of convincing ourselves that we are doing the right thing. I wanted a sign to know that I was doing the right thing.

I realise now that it was very wise to do that. To decide that we know that we are doing the right thing, without having evidence, is not a wise thing to do. If we convince ourselves that we are right, it means nothing. It does make us right.

While I was trying to be a good person, I saw these people around me doing strange things. I couldn't understand their motivation. People were doing things that weren't to their benefit, like smoking, drinking and so forth. These people seemed to be happy, and so I also tried to be happy. I too drank, and went to parties and generally tried to be happy, but all the time one thought plagued me. Why am I here? What is God's plan for me? I wanted to be sure that I didn't do the wrong thing, but convince myself I was right.

So I waited and waited and waited, in a limbo state, looking for happiness but never finding it, because God hadn't shown me his purpose for me. Eventually when I got to 22 years old, I had finally had enough. I was getting older and was not going anywhere. I was waiting for God to reveal to me his purpose, which he never did. I was unhappy, unmotivated, and depressed. So I did what we should all do in such a situation. I re-evaluated what I thought was important. I thought over all that had happened and tried to make sense of it all.

I started by not things which I knew wouldn't make me happy. I was determined to do what I wanted, not what other people would have done in that situation. If I was ever going to find happiness, it wasn't going to be found by looking what other people did for fun and then trying to do the same. I would have to follow my own direction.

[vertigo]

I realised that what I thought about people was wrong. As much as I had observed people, I didn't understand them at all. They didn't make sense to me. I didn't understand what motivated people to do the things they do.

My studies were ended, so I decided that while I had some time off until I found a job I would think about things. I wouldn't try to find happiness, or purpose, or any other such thing. I been trying that for far too long. I would keep my mouth shut most of the time and merely observe people. I wanted to understand people, what motivates them, what makes them happy, what makes them do stupid things. I wasn't making judgements, I was merely observing. I was seeking the truth. Not the truth as expounded by the Bible or other people, but a truth that worked for me.

It took me about 15 months to finally understand. People were helping other people because they wanted help. That was the answer. People wanted to help. It hardly mattered if the recipient really needed help, or if the recipient would have benefitted much. People did it because they wanted to help.

Why were people so ready to help others, but not themselves? Because helping yourself is seen as a bad thing, as being selfish, while helping others is seen as a good thing. People wanted to help others because that is what good people do. Good people help others, and they want to be good, so they help others.

Helping themselves is seen as bad, so they hide it when they do that, but advertise it when they help others. The most important question was why were people so anxious to prove that they were in fact good people? This question was the most important I ever answered. They were trying to prove they were good because they thought they were bad people. And they thought they were bad BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT CHRISTIANITY TELLS THEM!! Christianity tells us that without God in our lives, we are lowly sinners, doomed to eternal hell. Humans are imperfect, while God is perfect. Christianity tells us that we need Jesus, OR ELSE! God wants us to get to heaven, but he isn't going to help us get there. We must believe. We the imperfect, we the immoral, we the depraved, we the needy, the greedy, the sinful, the jealous, the selfish, the murderous.

People believe they are bad people, without God. They want to be good people, and so they try to prove it over and over. Even if we are Christians, and live as righteously as we can, nobody is perfect. We are still wretched sinners, condemned even before birth, and doomed without God's help.

I made the connection. The people around were so busy trying to help others that they didn't have time to help themselves. As a result, they lost out while others gained. They gave out of a desire to be good, always to the most needy, the most destitute, exactly those people that would never reciprocate it. They themselves were neglected, but after all, the bible says that humility is a virtue.

I realised that these do-gooders were themselves in need of help, because they weren't helping themselves. They didn't worry, because 'God will provide'. I realised the truth, though.

When we help people, they become dependent on us to help them in the future. They use their misfortune to buy our help. The more helpless they look, the more these do-gooders would flock to help them. It's much easier to ask somebody else to do something for you, than to do it yourself. Unfortunately, once you get into the habit of letting other people do things for you, it is difficult to start doing things for yourself again, especially as receiving help is not seen as a bad thing, but doing things for yourself is seen as being selfish, which is bad.

Following Christianity's morals leads you to this mode of existence, where you help others and need help yourself. I could not accept this as being right. It could not be right to neglect one's self. It could not be right to, through wantonly helping others, encourage them to become more dependent and less self-sufficient. Following the logic, the Christian morals could not be right, and therefore Jesus could not be right.

I decided to find morals that I thought were correct. Morals where neglecting one's self is immoral, but benevolence is a virtue. Morals where it is immoral to ask someone else to do something for you without justly compensating them for their efforts. Morals where honesty is the best policy. I didn't know where to begin.

I went to about.com's religion/philosophy section and I saw 'objectivism'. It advocated personal responsibility, fairness and had justice as a central theme. It sounded very interesting indeed. I found an objectivist forum and started participating, albeit with virtually no knowledge of objectivism. Interestingly enough I found most people there as dogmatic as Christians. However I had a good understanding of people, so could see the good from the bad.

Anyway, the path was set for me to reject the religious dogma completely. I can definitely say that the moment you realise that the Christian teachings are wrong and you reject them, not out of petty dislike of Christians but because you have seen where they lead and don't like it, it is like your eyes have opened for the first time. No longer are you afraid to ask questions. No longer are you afraid that you aren't good enough, aren't giving enough, aren't meek enough. No longer are you trying to prove. Even better is when you learn or discover that the concept of God is logically inconsistent, and belief in it is not warranted.

[Maverick]

vertigo said:

At Beniah's request, I will tell my story.

vertigo, I think your story would be more appropriate in your own thread. I noticed that you don't have an intro thread. Why don't you post this in a new thread in this Introductions section?