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Post by dragonfly on Dec 19, 2003 2:26:09 GMT -5
:)This is just my opinion and one I have thought about often.If there is a God/Creator then It/She /He would surely be the greatest Scientist of all and set into place all the laws of science.I am not saying I believe in a god(or gods) or not.I really don't know.BUT I do not find the belief of a god incompatible with the creation of the universe and all that that entails.An eternal creature with the power to create a universe could surely have the time to set in motion the big bang that went on to create everything....precognition would allow this being to forsee the devolment of earth,this being could set in motion the primordial soup that spawned life,this being could have (would have created the principles,physics and science through which evolution itself evolved?)...why not ? A timeless being has no time constraints.Maybe the Entity that created ALL has moved on,expired,lost interest,exists for now in another universe and may yet reurn ? Who knows.But in creating a universe (If indeed something did) what ever did created the science that controls and sets in motion everything from black-holes to quarks from galaxies to solar flares from dust to rain is bound by the same laws it created.I do not find the existance of either opposing but rather essential!
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Mark
Maverick's Chew Toy
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Post by Mark on Dec 19, 2003 7:58:26 GMT -5
But in creating a universe (If indeed something did) what ever did created the science that controls and sets in motion everything from black-holes to quarks from galaxies to solar flares from dust to rain is bound by the same laws it created. Are you saying that if God did create science then He's bound by it's laws? I don't follow. What about before creation? You're saying the Creator is at the mercy of the created. Looking forward to your reply (I've thought like you have before as well!). His, Mark. |
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Post by droskey on Dec 19, 2003 10:22:12 GMT -5
Welcome,dragonfly. For more on this topic you might want to take a look at the thread started by tamara entitled "Comparing Origin Hypotheses" under the Science & Philosophy section of this board.
Now to address your post, I think that the issue of God and the universe comes down to two questions. First how would a universe created by a god be different from one that was not created by a god? And second, if there is a difference, would we be able to notice it?
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tamara
Broken-in Plebe
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Post by tamara on Dec 19, 2003 12:09:22 GMT -5
Good question. I think a universe created by a god would should show evidence of a beginning. Which has been the case under big bang (and which caused consternation among scientists when it first came on the scene).
Which answers the second question: we have been able to notice the difference -- the data that has pointed to a beginning. (Red shift, background radiation, etc.)
The second part of the answer for me is this: such a universe would show that consciousness is a creative force in its own right (not merely as a curious by product of matter as the materialist reductionists have claimed).
There have been some very interesting experiments in quantum physics that seem to indicate that consciousness is just such a force.
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Post by Mistwalker on Dec 19, 2003 19:27:47 GMT -5
There is some evidence to suggest that matter was compressed into one point. One possible interpretation of this evidence is that the universe had a beginning. And even if the universe has a beginning, why would that lead us to conlude that there was a god? That's a non-sequiter.
Also, what quantum experiments suggest that consciousness is a "force"?
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Post by dragonfly on Dec 19, 2003 19:51:36 GMT -5
Are you saying that if God did create science then He's bound by it's laws? I don't follow. What about before creation? You're saying the Creator is at the mercy of the created. Looking forward to your reply (I've thought like you have before as well!). :)What I'm saying is that I think that the universe and all that is in it (including A God if it exists) must obey or is governed by rules and principles.Wether we have an understanding or knowledge of those laws does not mean that they don't exist.I believe that if "something" created everything "it" would be also bound by those same principles to enable everything to work....disregard for those laws would certainly manifest in a noticable way.It is worth remembering that human beings barely understand their own functioning let alone the vast cosmos! modified to fix quote tags ~AuntieSocial |
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Post by dragonfly on Dec 19, 2003 19:56:37 GMT -5
Welcome, dragonfly. For more on this topic you might want to take a look at the thread started by tamara entitled "Comparing Origin Hypotheses" under the Science & Philosophy section of this board. Now to address your post, I think that the issue of God and the universe comes down to two questions. First how would a universe created by a god be different from one that was not created by a god? And second, if there is a difference, would we be able to notice it? :)Well I personally do not think that human beings in their present state are capable of or even in a position to notice or understand how or even if a universe would be diffent if created by a god or not.Therefore I do not see how how the issue of god and the universe can be resolved by this question because its a question we can not answer!(  Well I can't answer it!)l |
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Post by AuntieSocial on Dec 19, 2003 20:18:47 GMT -5
:)Well I personally do not think that human beings in their present state are capable of or even in a position to notice or understand how or even if a universe would be diffent if created by a god or not.Therefore I do not see how how the issue of god and the universe can be resolved by this question because its a question we can not answer!( Well I can't answer it!)l I don't think that we are capable of answering the 'origins' question also. My reason for thinking this way is that none of us were there and we have not had the luxury of seeing a universe being created. Maybe some day we will observe the creation of a universe, maybe not. Until that time, I would have to say that this is one of the unanswerable questions. There are thories, yes. Some have some really good, solid, scientific basis. But they will remain theories until an observable test can be administered, in my humble opinion. |
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Post by dragonfly on Dec 19, 2003 20:59:50 GMT -5
I don't think that we are capable of answering the 'origins' question also. My reason for thinking this way is that none of us were there and we have not had the luxury of seeing a universe being created. Maybe some day we will observe the creation of a universe, maybe not. Until that time, I would have to say that this is one of the unanswerable questions. There are thories, yes. Some have some really good, solid, scientific basis. But they will remain theories until an observable test can be administered, in my humble opinion. I agree but even if we were able to view the creation of the universe we still might be unable to comprehend what we were seeing.I think opinions on what had happened would still differ widely!That is the nature of the human animal....some see clearly, some see what they want, some fail to see what lies infront of them or even in their own heart, some can not see beyond their comfort zone ....and we are all unable to see beyond the limits of our capacity and understanding. |
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tamara
Broken-in Plebe
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Post by tamara on Dec 19, 2003 21:47:33 GMT -5
Mistwalker, please note I was responding to jacopo's question, not "concluding there was a god." Here is the argument: if God exists, the universe will show evidence of a beginning. Since I am a theist, it's a plus for my point of view there is currently such evidence. This does not prove God exists!
I was referring to Bell's theorem and other experiments seemingly indicating that awareness or measurement in effect creates reality -- makes real what was otherwise only potential, as well as indicating that the individual particles seem to be in instataneous awareness of each other and able to act on that information.
I wasn't referring to a "force" in the physics definition sense, just common sense.
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Post by droskey on Dec 19, 2003 23:47:44 GMT -5
dragonfly
I think that it may be possible for human beings to come to understanding of origins to a point. However, I agree with you that the Truth of that understanding may not reach metaphysical levels. Actually, Truth on a metaphysical level might be nothing more than a poorly defined notion. However, what I am talking about is not truth with a capital "T". I am really interested in what we can know and how we can be reasonably sure of what we think we know.
My point is that if there is no detectable difference between a god created universe and a non-god created one, then both ideas are on equal footing (at the least). With that, I find no compelling reason to believe in a god. This is why I say that I am an atheist, I don't maintain an active state of belief in a god.
This applies to arguments about consciousness and other such things. I see know reason to think that our universe had to be created by an intelligent, self-aware force.
tamara
I'm not an expert on all things quantum mechanical, but I think that this is probably a fairly liberal interpretations of violations of Bell's inequality. Such violations along with Schrodinger's cat type experiments don't really place any importance on conscious measurements. A lot of quantum mechanics (QM) is about information theory and what can be known about a system. We've got to be very careful when we are tempted to take the strange results of QM and remove them from their proper environment to explain complex topics such as conciousness.
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Post by AuntieSocial on Dec 20, 2003 11:33:40 GMT -5
tamara
Yes, we, as humans, have a tendency to apply our own agendas to the things that we observe. Maybe agendas isn't the best word to use there, but it's the one that came to mind ...
However, I refrain from limiting our comprehension capabilities. Imagine, if you will, if the ancients never tried to comprehend fire, lightning, etc ... There are many things that were previously attributed to one deity or another, we now understand these things and how they form/perform.
I think that if we ever have the opportunity to observe the creation of another universe, there will be minds great enough to understand, or at least have some really good observational data for future great minds.
I'm one of those people who thinks that the only limitations on man are the ones that we, ourselves, have placed upon us. There was a time when great thinkers were ridiculed because they thought we could fly, that we could build machines that would allow us to leave the confines of the earth's surface. If no one had seen the wisdom in Galileo's flying machines, we would still be grounded. It only takes a spark to create a raging fire ...
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Post by Mistwalker on Dec 20, 2003 22:59:31 GMT -5
I had misread the name is front of your statements, tamara. I thought that was dragonfly's post as well, and dragonfly has stated that god was needed. This was a mistake on my part.
Dragonfly: Why is God "essential"? And if humans are not capable of understanding how the universe functions, how can we come to the logical conclusion that a god is needed to create the universe?
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Post by dragonfly on Dec 23, 2003 0:22:39 GMT -5
:)Well Mistwalker as to your last question...I do not believe the existance of God (whatever that is) is essential .What I meant to say was that if God exists then I believe that ,that force created the science that created everything and is also bound by it.I should have said that belief in God and Science is essentially compatible.
As I said in another post :an eternal being(or beings) has no time constraints and I do not find it strange that such a force may have set into motion the forces needed to create the universe and thus earth and the slow process of evolution that spawned life....the fact that billions of years are involved would mean nothing .
I actually find the non-existance of a supreme being as odd as the existance of one.To be perfectly honest neither option seems possible(or appealing)...and yet one of those options is correct.
I believe that in our present stage of development that human beings could not undestand the creation of the universe were we to witness it...or recognise God if it/she/he were revealed because we do not yet even understand our own life forces or the workings of our own minds.( much of the workings of the universe remain a puzzle .Other life forms we share the planet with remain a great mistery) One day we may understand but I believe that time is so far away that we probably won't resemble the human beings of today.
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Well I can't answer it!)l
