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Post by dragonfly on Dec 19, 2003 21:48:53 GMT -5
Belief in a one or more gods or a creator seems to be a natural part of the human psyche and not as a result of mental illness.Infact mental illness is more likey to be created by the duality created between culture and custom and schism caused by information overload and scientific knowledge combined with the current social acceptability of questioning religiou and belief systems.
One could argue that humans mental health was more secure when Myth and legend were presented and accepted as total fact and offered an explanation for everything.How could believing in a god be evidence of mental illness when for most of human history such a belief was shared by almost everyone and was in its way the science of its time.These beliefs made sense of an otherwise sensless state.
(Not including 3rd world countries)Modern man has become fractured and disjointed....once tribal and deeply social with strong and interconnected ties to the environment mankind has created an artificial world with an artificial life-style far removed from hunter-gatherer or early agricultural societies.But deep in our psyche wether we like it or not early man prowls at the fringes of our subconcious creating friction and tension when the 2 worlds collide. Who has not felt strangely compelled by a full moon,disturbed by a dream,haunted by inexplicable instinct or impulse? What is the source of that strange overwhelming awe when standing on ancient sites or in religious structures? Are we not subject at times to seemingly irrational fears (try walking through a cemetary late at night or an old deserted ruin in the heart of a forest....and I am NOT talking about the real and rational fear of being attacked by a fellow human!)
Perhaps people who seem to communicate or connect to their god are perhaps externalising internal feelings or connecting to a racial memory of some kind....or perhaps they are in tune with the primitive part of their ego....after all talking /preying to a god is not so far removed from talking to ones self and a lot of people do that!(And I think thats a sign of good mental health)
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Post by Mistwalker on Dec 20, 2003 23:35:55 GMT -5
First of all, and this isn't related to the content of your post, a paragraph break or two would be nice once in a while, or you could skip a line between thoughts, since "tab" doesn't work in form boxes. Take a breath  "Beleif in a one or more gods or a creator seems to be a natural part of the human psyche and not as a result of mental illness." I've only ever read one post saying that religion or belief in a deity is a mental illness, and I don't think anyone actually agreed with it. If you are responding to that you might want to put this in that thread. "Infact mental illness is more likey to be created by the duality created between culture and custom and schism caused by information overload and scientific knowledge combined with the current social acceptability of questioning religiou and belief systems." Culture and custom are the same thing, as far as I know, and I don't see any evidence that more scientific knowledge hurts anyone, or skeptisism of belief systems. If you want to assert this as true you're going to have to show evidence for it. "One could argue that humans mental health was more secure when Myth and legend were presented and accepted as total fact and offered an explanation for everything." One could also argue that the polar ice caps are covered in ice cream, but that doesn't mean it's so. You'll have to provide evidence for that. "How could believing in a god be evidence of mental illness when for most of human history such a belief was shared by almost everyone and was in its way the science of its time.These beliefs made sense of an otherwise sensless state." I don't consider believing in a god a mental illness, but to call religion "science" is ridiculous. The only way in which they are similar is that both attempt to provide an answer. Science is based on a quantitative analysis of the world around us, it is self correcting, and experiments are repeatable by anyone. Religion, on the other hand, is what someone says is true, and there is no real way, using religion, to check on a claim. No controls, no quantitative data. "(Not including 3rd world countries)Modern man has become fractured and disjointed....once tribal and deeply social with strong and interconnected ties to the environment mankind has created an artificial world with an artificial life-style far removed from hunter-gatherer or early agricultural societies." We are fractured and disjointed? Please show this to be the case. Society is contstantly changing, but I'm not sure any of it is for the worse, and I can't see any evidence that a move towards secular life effects mental health adversely. "But deep in our psyche wether we like it or not early man prowls at the fringes of our subconcious creating friction and tension when the 2 worlds collide." What does this mean, exactly, and can you show it to be true? If you mean that some of our more basic instincts (fight or flight, etc.) conflict with our intellectual state, I agree. Beating up your boss or running away doesn't help you in a stressful work environment. I don't see how this is related to religion, however, or how a lack of a belief in a god affects this. It appears that evolution hasn't caught up with changes in society. "Who has not felt strangely compelled by a full moon,disturbed by a dream,haunted by inexplicable instinct or impulse? What is the source of that strange overwhelming awe when standing on ancient sites or in religious structures? Are we not subject at times to seemingly irrational fears (try walking through a cemetary late at night or an old deserted ruin in the heart of a forest....and I am NOT talking about the real and rational fear of being attacked by a fellow human!)" I haven't felt strangely compelled by a full moon, to my recollection. Dreams can disturb us, and I haven't ever felt any sort of awe when standing inside a religious structure because it is religious. I feel awe when standing inside an impressive structure, such as the capital building, or a cathedral. This is because of impressive size or beauty, not because it is a religious institution. I've sat inside small uninteresting churches and felt -0- awe. Cemetaries don't bother me at any time of day or night. Honestly, I don't see why any of this matters. Our various vague fears and superstition do not suggest that a life without religion makes one mentally unsound. "Perhaps people who seem to communicate or connect to their god are perhaps externalising internal feelings or connecting to a racial memory of some kind....or perhaps they are in tune with the primitive part of their ego....after all talking /preying to a god is not so far removed from talking to ones self and a lot of people do that!(And I think thats a sign of good mental health) " Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't see that religion affects overall mental health adversly, or positively. Sorry that was so long. (modified to remove typos) |
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Post by Maverick on Dec 21, 2003 10:14:28 GMT -5
dragonfly, your entire post seems to be a response to the A Frequent Mental Illness: Religion thread created by GODISFAKE. In the future, I would appreciate that you respond to people in the same threads that they’ve created unless you have something different to bring up about the same subject. dragonflyIn reading the thread I linked to above, you’ll find that most of the replies posted voiced disagreement with GODISFAKE on the issue of theism and mental illness. From my first post in that thread, I quote: MaverickI think that calling theism a mental illness is an easy (but poor) cop-out. But your claim (that scientific information and information overload is the source of mental illness) is just as unfounded as GODISFAKE’s claim. Can you provide evidence that mental illness is caused by scientific knowledge? Can you even explain why you think scientific knowledge is a more likely cause of mental illness than theism? dragonflyAre you trying to tell us that a claim can be true because of the number of people who believe in it? It was once widely believed that the earth was the center of the universe. Was that claim true? dragonflySo these beliefs helped people make sense of the world as they knew it then. So what? Should we continue to believe in theories and claims that have been disproven just because they made sense to someone at sometime? dragonflyModern man has become fractured and disjointed? This seems to contradict the idea that globalization has created a more unified, global interest. I also find it interesting that you choose to exclude 3rd world countries when they are largely responsible for most of the world’s population growth. Coming back to the topic of the thread, what does any of this have to do with theism? Whether society is fractured or not, what point were you trying to make with this information? dragonflyIf we are going to say that the source of god-belief is the instinct of “early man” –– than isn’t it reasonable to conclude that man has evolved (or is evolving) beyond the need to believe in a god? dragonflyI have never been compelled by the moon. If a dream has ever disturbed me, I don’t recall it ever bothering me after waking up. By inexplicable impulses, do you mean impulses that I cannot explain? Or impulses that cannot be explained? dragonflyIt depends on who you are asking and whether or not they actually feel awed. Personally, I am awed by structures that I find to be beautifully constructed. If it is an ancient site, I might feel awed because of how long it has survived and the historical story it tells. Why would I need a god to make me have these feelings of awe? And yes, humans are often subject to irrational fears (though I’ve never been afraid of walking through a cemetery). What part does any god play into this? dragonflyAgain, if we are suggesting that prayer or god belief is a part of primitive (or early) man, than isn’t it reasonable to assume that we have evolved (or are evolving) beyond these needs?
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Post by dragonfly on Dec 22, 2003 0:14:58 GMT -5
:)Firstly Mistwalker I will try and break up my thoughts to make them easier to read and also Maverick I understand and will be more careful to respond to a thread in its particular place.....Sorry !.I just found that issue particularly interesting and wished to create a distinct thread .
Wow I seem to have made a mess of my post in anycase as most of my ideas seem to have been poorly expressed.Obviously I typed faster than my brain fired! I will try and clear a few points up.
O.K Mistwalker culture and custom are actually different .Custom is a practise that has become habitual in a group through established use.Culture (the way I used it) a form or type of civilization.(Within one culture different casts may practise different customs)
I was under the perhaps mistaken belief that mental ill health was on the increase but this may be because of the way we now define mental health and because of the way we keep statistics and records of it.
What I really meant was that increasingly people are questioning their beliefs and exploring others which does create stress and angst rather than accepting the beliefs of their parents and/or the older community which had a traditional role in passing down such beliefs.
However I willingly acknowledge that it is probably just as anxiety causing to live in fear of hell- fire or to be continually judged by ones community in religious terms and practise.
And Maverick I certainly was not trying to say a claim can be true just because people believe in it ! I was trying to say that when large ammounts of a population accept a claim or share the same belief(rightly or wrongly) it does lead to unity of thought and culture.
And I also did not mean that we should continue to believe in theories or claims that have been disproven because they made sense to someone at the time. I do stand firm that religion was the science of its time and made sense of a sensless world. This system exists still all over the world(Yes ...I have traveled widely!) I have seen people test and prove their faith and religions in ways that do not seem valid to me but are accepted as proof by their community as exact in their minds as any scientific test.
I have seen people prove their faith by walking through fire,by not eating for weeks,by calling down visions with herbal drinks,by surviving illness or accident....wether I question the scientific value or not THEY have their proof!.Seriously I have seen things that baffle me...things I will never understand.If things were clear-cut for me I would not be here!.I always explore thing scientifically first but sometimes things just don't add up....but I cheerfully acknowledge this is my problem.
As to modern man and our unified interests....I agree we are developing unified interests but wether we agree on those interests is a different matter and how we explore them is yet another issue.I was not excluding third world countries I was merely stating that outside them custom and culture is in a greater state of flux at a more rapid pace.
As to the awe I mentioned,the odd feelings,the conflict of instinct and rational thought ,the disturbing dreams...you are right Maverick in that I speak for myself and wrongly assumed more people would feel as I did.
I suppose many would agree with your comments on man evoving beyond a need for god given that it is such an intregal part of ancient and early man But perhaps it is an intrinsic need.Perhaps modern man will forever question it as his ancestors did not but nothing is clear cut enough for me to believe that mankind will stop this search.
Perhaps there was never a god just the beginning of the cosmos.Perhaps there is a god and it has lost interest in us(certainly does not seem to intervene ),perhaps god was not eternal after all and was but now is not....I find all of these ideas horrifying in any case.I hope that when I die I am winked out of existance...any other alternative seems too terrible to contemplate .
I would rather there was no creator at all but sometimes during my travels I have been stirred by a sensation so profound and disturbing I can't make sense of it let alone describe it and in these moments I have wondered.
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Post by Griffey on Dec 22, 2003 14:39:11 GMT -5
Hello, after reading through this thread I thought of one of my professor's theories that might be of interest, regarding the "normality" of a deity belief.
Ok, firstly, psycho-babble wise, "normal" means "involving the majority of people," and "-disorder" means "a behavior or state that is detrimental to a person's mental, physcial, or social health." This means that it is possible to have a disorder without being abnormal, if most people have that disorder. Therefore, technically speaking, I would venture a guess that deity-belief is "normal," because (this is an assumption here, please correct me if I'm wrong) most people are theistic. So your question, from the way your posts make it sound, is actually dealing with disorder, not normality.
Now for the theory. My professor's thought was that religion (esp. afterlife beliefs) began when humans first started to become more sentient, or at least more intelligent. His theory was that humans started to contemplate and realize the eventuality of their own deaths at some point in prehistory. Perhaps out of either incomprehension, fear, hope, something, they started believing in supernatural phenomenon, such as life after death, or a god that would help them out if they asked for assistance. He described this as sort of an anti-depression/suicidal mechanism.
I think the general consensus here is that theism is not a mental disorder (is not detrimental to health, in and of itself). But do you think that deity-belief is, at the very least, vestigal? Or is there still benefit to it or need of it on the whole?
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Post by dragonfly on Dec 23, 2003 0:53:05 GMT -5
:)Well Griffey I agree that the concept of mortality is in general a painful one for humanity and I have seen with my own eyes during my wide travels of the earth that religion and a belief in the after-life can bring deep comfort.
Sentiency certainly plays a part in seeking to give life and death meaning.(interestingly even quite primitive life forms exihibit fear and/or avoidance of death).For the bulk of humanity life is often full of suffering and the reward of a beautiful after-life has appeal.Also losing loved ones to death is a very painful and heart rending experience and many people find the assurance that they shall meet their loved ones again the one thing that keeps them alive without them......these beliefs do not make it true.(but who knows?)
For myself were there to be a life after death(and I really hope there is not) I can not see how it would be possible to have the same meaningful experiences that we in our human and fleshly and oh so mortal forms enjoy.
I had a dream once when I was a child where God shed his own subtance to create us all leaving within us a blue residue of his own universe sized soul.When we died all that remained was this soul stuff that he re-absorbed.We were not individual...we did not have personalities...we were just part of god.
The dream marked me.I know it was just a dream but it made sense to me and I hated it but at the same time if I can not love,make love ,be with those I love,sing,dance(I am a dancer...can not imagine not moving!),roll down a grassy hill ,cook ripe red tomatoes with garlic from my garden,eat croissants with butter dripping down my chin and crumbs scattering across the floor,laugh out loud,turn the pages of a book as I immerse myself in its crisp creamy depths or romp with my dog.....who am I? What am I ? NOT ME!And I do not want to be something else....especially not for eternity!(not for 10 days!)
How does anything exist at all?
I do not belief that belief in a deity is vestigal.It is a more common belief than not. Most people on this board may not have this leaning and yearning for a God but most people do.I think humanity will still need and still needs a belief in a God because although it creates friction and war when cultures conflict on a personal level and on a social level it provides answers,it gives people a way to live their life and most importantly a reason for living. A huge amount of people alive on earth suffer....religion ensures they do not suffer in vain and that is why humanity on a whole clings to it .Rightly or wrongly...who really knows.
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Post by Griffey on Dec 25, 2003 21:03:13 GMT -5
I agree with what you've said about loss and the hope that some people need; I certainly have felt the same way at times. And as for the need of a God to give people hope, I can't really relate (to be quite honest, the idea of a super-powerful Big Brother scares me more than most things on earth, esp. after reading 1984...good book by the way). However, most of the people I know feel that way, so I am aware that such a feeling exists and isn't just some isolated incident. So, I can see where you'd think deity-belief is not vestigal. However, I think that in some societies it is a vestigal thing. My specific example is rich countries. Where the standard of living is high, people have good reasons to stick around, and could get along fine with no god, afterlife, etc. beliefs. This is just my hypothesis, however. By the way, dragonfly, stay away from Buddhism. Your description of your dream sounds an awful lot like what I know of Nirvana.  |
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kronus
Maverick's Chew Toy
A closet atheist. looking for communication with fellow freethinkers.
Posts: 19
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Post by kronus on Dec 30, 2003 22:37:14 GMT -5
My view as been
Three reasons my people create a diety.
1. Need to know. As people became sentient, They answered the many questions they had with a god.
2. Eliminate Death. Some people can't deal with the final of death so they just say it is't so.
3. Control of people.
All of the above require a surrendering mind.
Griffey Made some of these points.
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Kalena
Seasoned Citizen
Posts: 115
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Post by Kalena on Jan 29, 2004 22:26:50 GMT -5
I think humanity will still need and still needs a belief in a God because although it creates friction and war when cultures conflict on a personal level and on a social level it provides answers,it gives people a way to live their life and most importantly a reason for living. How can religion give a reason for living? I really never understood it; is it the fact that you have an afterlife? |
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Post by dragonfly on Jan 30, 2004 17:07:44 GMT -5
In answer to your question Kalena by reason for living I meant that religious conviction/belief gives emotional strength (only to believers of course) ,a structure and code by which to live your life, a feeling that you are not alone, and most important of all a society of other believers. I have also observed that in many types of religions(I have travelled widely) that the belief in an after life and a belief that the actions you take in life influence what occurs to you after death is a very powerful motivator to live your life well and in a positive way .
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Post by Hilly on Jan 30, 2004 20:58:22 GMT -5
I have also observed that in many types of religions(I have travelled widely) that the belief in an after life and a belief that the actions you take in life influence what occurs to you after death is a very powerful motivator to live your life well and in a positive way . Of course atheists are not motivated by the possibility of a after life in how they live their present life. They know to live their life "well and in a positive way" because society has shown its simply the right thing to do for the good of us all. |
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Post by dragonfly on Feb 2, 2004 1:15:45 GMT -5
I may have not understood your last post Hilly but I was not suggesting for a heartbeat that atheists do not know how to live their lives well ...but Kalena asked me how religion gave a reason for living and I was replying in that context.
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Post by Hilly on Feb 2, 2004 10:55:30 GMT -5
I may have not understood your last post Hilly but I was not suggesting for a heartbeat that atheists do not know how to live their lives well ... Sorry dragonfly, it was not my intent to suggest that you did. |
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Post by AuntieSocial on Feb 2, 2004 12:47:26 GMT -5
My view as been Three reasons my people create a diety. 1. Need to know. As people became sentient, They answered the many questions they had with a god. 2. Eliminate Death. Some people can't deal with the final of death so they just say it is't so. 3. Control of people. All of the above require a surrendering mind. Griffey Made some of these points. I would roll 2 and 3 together. It is a mechanism of control to introduce the idea of an afterlife. The reward for a good life (a life within the guidelines of the controlling religion) is a blissful eternity while the punishment is eternal damnation. The concept of an afterlife isn't necessarily new to the "Yahweh Cults", but the idea of it being a reward or punishment is (to my knowledge). The ancient Greeks, Aboriginal Australians and other tribal lore have a common destination for the dead. It isn't a reward or a punishment, but an inevitable end-result of living. Judaism (and it's followers) changed this. You no longer go to the Dreamtime, Valhalla, Hades, you know earn the right to Heaven, or perish is Hell's fires. Of course, I may be off on this theory, and as I study more of the world religions on a formal basis, I'm sure I will find that there are more religions who fall into the "common place for the dead" and there may possibly be other religions that have the reward/punishment aspect. But, based on my current knowledge, I can't think of any others that are in the latter category. |
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Post by droskey on Feb 3, 2004 1:38:06 GMT -5
Auntiesocial[
Actually, I think that quite a few cultures had rewards and punishments in the afterlife. The Persians believed in a "Hell". The Vikings also had a type of "Hell", although it was reserved for enemies.
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