Why have a "relationship" with a god?

[advancedatheist]

I don't understand why christians tend to argue that they have a "personal relationship" with their deity. Setting aside the delusional aspects of this belief, I find that idea peculiar because in everyday life we regularly encounter people we don't want to have relationships with. Why do christians assume that their supernatural patron/boyfriend/lover or whatever is "Mister Right"?

[AuntieSocial]

Here's my thoughts on that ...

Imagine, if you will, a young girl being read stories about a knight in shining armour who will rescue the princess from the perils of life. Now, imagine the father of that little girl calling her by the affectionate nickname of "princess". For years, this little girl grows with the idea that she is a little princess (though she knows she isn't really a princess) and that some day a white knight will ride in and sweep her away. He will be dashing and strong. He will say all the right things and have charm.

Now ... this child is grown ... one day she meets a young, dashing, strong, suave man ... they court and marry. After time, she comes to know that this man isn't as wonderful as she thought he would be ... that she was 'indoctrinated' into believing he would be. In the beginning, he was everything her father, the king, had said, but now he is abusive or unattentive. She will often think that it is something that she did wrog that has made him this way. She will try everything she can to be a better wife to him.

The Christ-myth is presented in a similar fashion to children everyday. You are a special child when you are a child of Jesus. Jesus will take away your sins ... etc

A child raised to believe in Jesus will either believe it because they were raised to believe it (and will overlook the inconsistencies), or assume that it they did something wrong, and that is why the Christ isn't as evident to them as their parent (friends, neighbours, pastor) make him out to be. They will try, to no avail, to be 'better' Christians.

[coolguy]

because the bible says he is perfect, duh

[advancedatheist]

This also goes to show that children learn about Jesus (and gods in general) in the same way they learn about Harry Potter. If they are never exposed to Christianity's arbitrary information, they are not going to think up something like this independently.

I think it would make for an interesting cliche reversal to write a novel where a superhumanly powerful humanoid shows up who claims to be Jesus (as in the latest installment of the abuse of literacy called the "Left Behind" series), but who soon reveals himself as sociopathic. Especially if this Jesus character sounds like a Goa'uld from SG-1!

This might work in a counter-myth that presents the "antichrist's" viewpoint sympathetically, since he is trying to improve conditions in a world apparently screwed up and abandoned by its creator. David Brin presents a similar argument in favor of Sauron's perspective in his essay, "J.R.R. Tolkien -- enemy of progress":

www.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/print.html

or,

tinyurl.com/3y3dd

AuntieSocial said:

Here's my thoughts on that ...

Imagine, if you will, a young girl being read stories about a knight in shining armour who will rescue the princess from the perils of life. Now, imagine the father of that little girl calling her by the affectionate nickname of "princess". For years, this little girl grows with the idea that she is a little princess (though she knows she isn't really a princess) and that some day a white knight will ride in and sweep her away. He will be dashing and strong. He will say all the right things and have charm.

Now ... this child is grown ... one day she meets a young, dashing, strong, suave man ... they court and marry. After time, she comes to know that this man isn't as wonderful as she thought he would be ... that she was 'indoctrinated' into believing he would be. In the beginning, he was everything her father, the king, had said, but now he is abusive or unattentive. She will often think that it is something that she did wrog that has made him this way. She will try everything she can to be a better wife to him.

The Christ-myth is presented in a similar fashion to children everyday. You are a special child when you are a child of Jesus. Jesus will take away your sins ... etc

A child raised to believe in Jesus will either believe it because they were raised to believe it (and will overlook the inconsistencies), or assume that it they did something wrong, and that is why the Christ isn't as evident to them as their parent (friends, neighbours, pastor) make him out to be. They will try, to no avail, to be 'better' Christians.

[Jewel]

AuntieSocial said:

Imagine, if you will, a young girl being read stories about a knight in shining armour who will rescue the princess from the perils of life. Now, imagine the father of that little girl calling her by the affectionate nickname of "princess". For years, this little girl grows with the idea that she is a little princess (though she knows she isn't really a princess) and that some day a white knight will ride in and sweep her away. He will be dashing and strong. He will say all the right things and have charm.

AuntieS...I grew up believing in fairy tales (mostly Disney, that's why I think Disney sucks) & I've been in 2 very abusive relationships. I'm lucky that I learned the hard way & I found a wonderful man to whom I'm married. Nothing could brainwash a child more than to believe in the good in ppl completely & never be introduced to the dangers therein. That's exactly what religion does to people.

Jewel

[Franc28]

I have relationships with other people. I know they exist, I perceive their communications, and like any other sensory data, other people can perceive them too in the exact same way. I can prove that the other person exists. If I ask them to manifest themselves, they can. None of these things are true with God.

[AuntieSocial]

Good point, Franc. (And welcome aboard!)

The thing that worries me is when people start believing that the deity is in communication with them. A couple of cases in point, Andrea Yates and Deanna Laney... women who believed that God instructed them to kill their children. Furthermore, the communities in which they lived didn't see any cause for alarm before the incidents. Interestingly, the Texas court ruled that Laney was insane at the time she committed the murders. In a way, there is now a precident on the books (in Texas) that states that those who believe they heard a command from God are insane ...

[pieisgood]

Welcome Franc, and nice avatar ;D

Aside: AA, don't even mention that "left behind" series... blegh.

I think that it's a pretty long chain of events. That triggers that kind of thing.

First, when they are very young they are indoctrinated (sp?) into their religion. They also are taught that God is Omnipotent, Omniscent, Omnibenevolent (all-powerful, is everywhere, all-loving) and they, naturally think "Woo and Yay! There's some guy who loves me and is really powerful!

I've always thought one of the most potent concepts in theism is the power of suggestion. I've tried it... my dad told me to look out the window and look for a green glow in the air. It wasn't there, but I believed it was, and sure enough, I could have sworn I saw it.

Same with a God- If you believe that he exists and loves you, you'll feel it. That's why theists always say "Just accept God for one minute and then see what you think". It's probably how they got their start. So, if they firmly beleive that their God loves them, they will decide that they are having a personal relationship with him. If they firmly believe that, then they will feel the effects and decide it works.

[livinitup]

advancedatheist said:

I don't understand why christians tend to argue that they have a "personal relationship" with their deity.

Youve missed the big point about Christians, through a personal relationship with Him, is the only way to Heaven. They are tied to him and talk to him, just as you would talk to your friend or mother. You can say hes not real or you dont here him, the problem is as a Christian i can say yes he does i speak to him. Now its your word vs mine...this arguement has been around forever and i dont expect to solve it. As far as manifistation, like i said the age old arguemnt, i know hes there you dont ... not gonna get solved today... I would like to comment on Auntiesocials point about the crazy lady... First This goes against God in a sense that he would never order anything of such and have it carried through. Either by demonic force or her own stupidity she killed her kids. Now i would like to see that proceedent...On to pieisgood I am a Christian with a Rocky start no one asked me try it and see if it works, i was drawn too it. I drove myself to church when i was 16 wanting to know more. I was not pushed by anyone. As far as the deciding to have a personal relationship or not, is that not with everyone, you decide to be someones friend... What has really deepened my faith however is reading more. NOt just biblical information, i went out and found nonbiblical sources and historical info to back up some of the bibles claims... Let me ask how many of yall have actually done that?

[pieisgood]

pieisgood said:

I will point to the big bang thread.

For one thing, humans have a need to know the unknown. If they don't, they fill something in. For example, Lasker (I think that was his name...) had a spontaneous generation theory in which living things spontatneously popped out of non-living things. It was very widely believed, because there was no theory that opposed it. People just weren't okay with an "I don't know" answer.

File that away, that "I don't know" doesn't work

Now. God was invented/discovered an extremely, extremely long time ago. Back then, would you think they knew enough to have enough information to make a thouroughly educated decision about God? Of course not. But they did anyways, because, frankly, what else could be making those rainbow colored things up in the sky? What could have made rain? Trees? Us?

Since the concept of I don't know doesn't work for them, they made up a special being. An omnipotent being that could do something pretty incredible, create mankind.

So it stands to reason that they would create a being like that. Why God as he is?

a) what you said was partially true, men were unfairly dominanant back then. God is a man

b) God only wants good things to happen. This makes them feel more secure, since they honestly believe that they are good at heart.

c) God is all-powerful. This makes them feel more secure.

d) Whoever believes in God will be saved. More secure again.

e) God loves everybody. THere are times in life when, to be blunt, some pretty crappy things happen. Woudln't it be great to have some omnipotent, good being on your side?


AND, going off the other thread...

God's limits keep getting pushed back. At first, God did everything that happens. Then, we learned how rainbows are made. Okay, okay, rainbows occur naturally, but everything else was made by God. Then we discover something else, and God loses control over that, but still has power over everything else

As we learn stuff, the need for God to have created it diminishes. More proof that God is only a filler for what we don't know.

There's my thoughts,

-pie

This a post I made on another thread awhile ago (spent forever trying to dig it up anybody know a faster way then to sift through every post I've ever made?)

It's relevant here because of why you were drawn to it. A big, logical reason that I am an atheist is because I read up and developed theories on each individual aspect of God (such as, the post above demonstrates why so many people are drawn to Him, A few posts up I said why people seem to be able to feel his presense). Afterwards, I realised that they seemed to fit together quite nicely, and with those theories a number of the cases for theism were, to me, logically defeated. Too many things seemed illogical, should a God be controlling them.

[livinitup]

pieisgood said:

A big, logical reason that I am an atheist is because I read up and developed theories on each individual aspect of God (such as, the post above demonstrates why so many people are drawn to Him.

Well ye haw you like to sit around alot, Im glad you figured out why rainbows work. LOL However you still dodged the big point on the universe, i could give you the analogies but im sure you have alrdy heard them. IM still waiting to hear you discuss evidence against Christ, as well as the Crusifiction as you said you would in the other post ...
Thanx man

[pieisgood]

ummm I think that was Non who said there was evidence against that, not me.

Annnnnd... huh? I don't really get what you want me to do.

[livinitup]

Yea your right sorry to many different thoughts in my head, my appologies replace Pie with Non and reinterate

[advancedatheist]

livinitup said:

Youve missed the big point about Christians, through a personal relationship with Him, is the only way to Heaven.

Why would anyone want to go to "heaven," sight unseen? After all, the christian myth implies that there's something very, very wrong with it, because a number of its original inhabitants studied it up close and decided to rebel.

And I've never read a good reason why christians in heaven can't rebel against god. The christian "worldview" gives an explicit, though unexplained, precedent for such a breakdown in god's authority. This should raise the suspicions of any reasonably experienced person who can tell that an "official" story doesn't make sense, as we've seen in recent political events. Maybe a god with supernatural foreknowledge is setting up some christian "saint," like you, livinitup, to become the next "satan."

[livinitup]

Why would anyone want to go to "heaven," sight unseen? After all, the christian myth implies that there's something very, very wrong with it, because a number of its original inhabitants studied it up close and decided to rebel.

I missed it what is very very wrong with heaven? Your talking about the fallen angels the devil and what not correct, if you read the bible you will find that he wanted Gods power, so he had a battle and lost, he and his army was cast out of heaven. Is the story in a nutshell.

And I've never read a good reason why christians in heaven can't rebel against god.

There is no need to God proved his power, over satin, yes they could, this is considered a fallen angel, the problem comes when well they Just cant Win. God has power over them all.

This should raise the suspicions of any reasonably experienced person who can tell that an "official" story doesn't make sense, as we've seen in recent political events.

You lost me on that one... what political events? and how does that deal with heaven?

Maybe a god with supernatural foreknowledge is setting up some christian "saint," like you, livinitup, to become the next "satan.

Except that No if you read revelations all things will come to a close for you. Understanding it will def be hard for you though, im not saying your dumb Im saying it requires indepth reading, which i find alot of people just dont do. There will be a final battle between Good and Evil, The mark of the beast will become apparent, and legions of angels will fight against the devil and his armies. It is written, the devil will fail and be cast and locked away forever with his minions. There will be no more evil in the new Isreal (heaven) no more cold hearts to rise up against God. Like i said your largest problem is just not reading.

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