What everyone thinks of Jesus

[livinitup]

As i posted someplace else i wanted to open this up for discussion, im just looking for peoples views on what they think about Jesus IE was there anything special on him, or was he just some guy...and so forth

Comments

Thanks.

[pieisgood]

I think he was real, that he was a good man, but that he wasn't the son of God or anything special like he claimed to be (therefore, he was also either delusional, a liar, or he just used Machiavellian techniques).

[Kaiouss Khalizad]

He knew what he was doing, but I don't believe he was anything more than anyone else except perhaps theologically. I think that the Archon he was responsible for was one of the bigger ones in the world.

[Yaw]

Welcome, Kaiouss Khalizad!

As for Jesus? Shabbatai Zvi with good PR.

[nonny]

I think Jesus could have been an actually man but some of the stuff he did is mostly fictional even the way he died. Because if you think about it he would have been dead way before they put him on the cross.

[Hilly]

I expect he did exist and probably was a decent man with a large following that eventually got the Romans pissed off, so they offed him.
The rest has been skewed big time and the nonsense continues to this day.

[AuntieSocial]

I have serious doubts as to the man's actual existence. In the "most documented time in our history (pre-mass media)", there is very little written about the man. Indeed, there is nothing outside of the gospel accounts (The Josephus account was merely a rumour and may have been a fraudulent addition, Tacitus wrote only of Christians, he did not write about the man himself. There is valid speculation that the "Christus" he was referring to may have been Krishna or a couple of other possible candidates. Either way, we know that christians exist.)

As far as the gospel account of the man, if you take into consideration the political (oppression) atmosphere of 1st Century Palestine, there are sufficient references within the Gospels that indicate he was a freedom fighter, insurrectionist, zealot. I can go on further with this account, if requested.

My main reason for skepticism is the lack of archeological evidence and contemporary documentation. Also, the vast similarities with other deities who were popular at the time and days before, make it difficult to view the man as anything more than a designed attempt (by Saul of Tarsus, and later the Council of Nicea) to subvert believers from the pre-existing pagan beliefs.

Also, four major, documented, event in and around the life of Jesus bring into question the existence of a man who was supposedly the saviour of mankind ...

A century before the life of Jesus, there was a Thracian gladiator who lead a two-year revolt against Rome. I'm sure most of you have seen the movie (which isn't entirely accurate). The man's name was Sparticus. The revolt and ultimate death of Sparticus are well documented. As is the punishment of those who survived the final confrontation with three Roman regiments ... death by crucifixtion.

In the year of Jesus' supposed birth, there was another up-rising. This time, in Palestine. It was lead by a man named Judas of Galilee (or Gamala). His followers were protesting the taxation census. Remember the Bible story about Jesus' birth? They went to Bethlehem to register for the census? Well, the revolt is documented.

In 66-70 CE, there was a major revolt in Jerusalem. The consequence of this revolt was the destruction of the city. Jewish insurrectionists lead the revolt. They escaped to Masada and held the Romans off for two-years before committing mass suicide. By some accounts, Josephus was one of the survivors (other accounts say that 2 women and 5 children were the only survivors). Other accounts list Josephus as one of the thousands of Jewish prisoners of war who were forced into slavery during the seige. (Either way, it should be noted that Josephus was on the Jewish side of the revolt ... he later became a Roman historian, changing his name to a Roman name. To me, this brings Josephus' motives (and his objectivity) into question) This is documented.

In 132 CE, there is another major revolt in Jerusalem, which again results in the razing of the city by Roman troops. Another consequence was the expulsion of the Jews from the "Holy City". This is well documented.

In the midst of these major events, there lived a man who was reputed to be the saviour of mankind. Who's ministry and death are barely mentioned except in the writings of men who were supposedly his followers (some 20-100 years after his death). He apparently died by crucifixion, a penalty reserved for those guilty of crimes against the Empire. All of the "artifacts" that have been found to support his existence have also been found to be frauds ...

... and I'm expected to believe based on faith?

[Jewel]

pieisgood said:

I think he was real, that he was a good man, but that he wasn't the son of God or anything special like he claimed to be (therefore, he was also either delusional, a liar, or he just used Machiavellian techniques).

I'm w/ pieisgood. I believe he was a nice guy, but how many ppl did & have claimed to be the son of god? I mean, David Koresh even claimed that. And people believed him!

Maybe it was just a weird translation of what he was REALLY saying...

Jewel

[advancedatheist]

I think Jesus was mythological, even if parts of the story take place in real, though imperfectly recalled, locations. After all, many of the stories of Greek mythology are set in real places around the Mediterranean. At one time the inhabitants of the island of Crete would even show tourists a cave that they claimed was the tomb of Zeus, which suggests a parallel with the alleged tombs (there are more than one!) attributed to Jesus.

[AuntieSocial]

My mother visited the cave on Crete which was the birthplace of Zeus ... this is a parallel with some of the earlier Christian traditions of the birth of Christ ... there are also other pagan myths that have the 'savious' being born in a cave or a grotto (Mithra is one, I believe that Adonis/Tammuz is another)

[Dugald]

Auntie, that was quite a well-documented reference! I had to look up the use of CE (in place of AD). I hadn't seen that terminology used before, but will use it myself now that I'm enlightened!

My belief on the question of Jesus is that such a man probably existed, but that the events of his life were invented and/or embellished in the gospels in order to advance the agenda of the church. I have no doubt that such a man was conceived in the usual fashion, that he stayed dead after he was killed. The miracles attributed to him were stories invented or exagerated to teach a lesson, to "prove" a "truth" that was important to the church.

If he did exist, he was probably a good man, probably a charismatic man, one who inspired a following which ultimately grew well beyond anything he imagined.

But frankly I've never researched the evidence of his existence to any great degree, since in the end I don't think the answer is important. The church exists, regardless of whether Jesus did or not. The church has power in my world, though Jesus is long dead. And no Christian I've ever met will be convinced by any "proof" that Jesus didn't exist, so it's a losing argument.

[advancedatheist]

Dugald said:

My belief on the question of Jesus is that such a man probably existed, but that the events of his life were invented and/or embellished in the gospels in order to advance the agenda of the church.

I draw the analogy between the Jesus story and the whole false belief system that has arisen in our lifetimes about an alleged crash of an alien space ship near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. We know now that an Air Force balloon carrying the then-classified Project Mogul crashed in the New Mexico desert, which gave rise to the original misreporting. (Keep in mind this happened less than a decade after Orson Welles scared many Americans with his "War of the Worlds" radio play. Before television, most Americans back then, especially in rural areas, weren't very sophisticated.) Despite the pedestrian facts and common sense, a myth about this balloon has grown to preposterous proportions in the telling, with details about a wrecked extraterrestrial flying saucer, dead aliens, a massive government coverup and theories that many modern technologies like fiber optics and transistors were reverse-engineered from stuff found in the wreckage.

So in a way, the reported crucifixion and "supernatural" resurrection of Jesus could have been like the Roswell Incident of its time. A misunderstood something or other about a man or demigod named Jesus snowballed in a few generations into an astounding narrative of allegedly true events that happened in the recent past.

[Franc28]

I have recently written an article on this in my Suite 101 column on Atheism, which you can read here :

www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/106446

My basic positions :
* "Jesus" is a myth. There is no evidence that there was even a human being that inspired it.
* The teachings of "Jesus" in the Gospels are extremely evil and a good example of the Christian slave/slaveholder mentality.

[advancedatheist]

Franc28 said:

My basic positions :
* "Jesus" is a myth. There is no evidence that there was even a human being that inspired it.

And there are plenty of historical analogues. Nobody today would argue that Heracles (Hercules to the Romans) was historical, even though many Greeks and Romans worshipped him, and his alleged biography had him living in real places like the Greek city of Thebes.

For a more recent example of a totally made-up person whom people believed in at one time, consider Prester John.

* The teachings of "Jesus" in the Gospels are extremely evil and a good example of the Christian slave/slaveholder mentality.

Considering the level of the material culture of that era, would any other ethic have been economically sustainable? It's probably not coincidental that Western societies abolished slavery around the time that their economies began to use large amounts of coal. Coal and other fossil hydrocarbons supply the services of "energy slaves" that are far more abundant and versatile than what human physical labor can provide.

[Dugald]

advancedatheist said:

I draw the analogy between the Jesus story and the whole false belief system that has arisen in our lifetimes about an alleged crash of an alien space ship near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

A very interesting and relevant analogy!

The point for me is that whether or not he lived is only relevant if you accept that he was divine (it's the agnostic in me). Since I don't believe he was divine, it's irrelevant whether he lived or was fabricated. Either way the Church has built the religion using him as its figurehead, and it's still the Church that has all the power. The Church will not agree that he did not live, as his life is the foundation of their existence. So the argument is fruitless.