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Post by EvenThen on Oct 26, 2004 12:15:43 GMT -5
I think that the title says it all, but I wanna hear what you guys have to say...
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Oct 26, 2004 12:53:07 GMT -5
I think that the title says it all, but I wanna hear what you guys have to say... Presumed Authority is what comes to mind, but I'll have to think more about it. Selective Application and Evolving Positions are others. I'm actually quite content with Christianity on a whole. I could look back on my life and tell you I might not have possibly survived without my former faith (though, how could I truly know?). I might not have been given the opportunities and friendships (and certainly not my marriage) that I treasure now. What I was taught about Christ (or what I accepted or retained) growing up was absolutely wonderful. As a personal philosophy - great. As a belief system - not too bad. As unquestionable truth in which to act categorically and globally - scares the hell out me (so to speak).
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Post by solidsquid on Oct 26, 2004 12:57:11 GMT -5
I only have a couple of problems with that religion but is applicable to others as well.
I dislike any religion which tries to legislate it's beliefs or guide the course of scientific endevours due to nothing but an ideology based in myth.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 26, 2004 14:00:01 GMT -5
My biggest issue with Christianity is the dishonesty of Christians. If Christians really lived the Christian way it would be one thing, but the same people in church lie and cheat and steal just the same the rest of the time.
In fact, by and large atheists are more moral. To be a Christian is to live the Christian life, and that includes things like not judging others. Unfortunately, often Christians are vastly judgemental.
So my beef is that people don't follow it correctly, honestly.
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 27, 2004 9:23:17 GMT -5
That is my biggest issue with Christianity. I myself at times have said one thing, and done the complete opposite. But there are a lot of Christians that aren't like that. There are Christians that own up to their mistakes, try to live the life that they're called to, without being judgemental, narrow-minded, hot tempered, etc. It's sad that the small amount of those who are hypocritical and duplicit seem to speak for those who aren't. That's my take, at least.
Not sure if I agree with that.
I agree.
In defense of Christians- we're not perfect. No one is. There is no such thing as a "perfect" Christian, and if anyone tells you otherwise, they are lying. I'm sure you could take aside any Christian and you'd find that there are things in their life that do not line up with what they believe. Does that mean they're hypocritical? Not neccasarily. It means they're a sinner, like the rest.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 27, 2004 14:13:50 GMT -5
Well a friend and I were walking down the road when a woman in a car stopped next to us and said "did you know, Jesus loves you?".
Why do Christians do stuff like that? Are Christians honest about why they do things like that? The fact is that Christians look out for opportunities to do the right thing.
A Christian is never so virtuous as when he is confronting evil, spreading the word, etc. Too bad that I don't like people stopping and telling me bogus things. The stupidest part is that this woman probably convinces herself that she did it for our benefit.
Such acts are not selfless. To believe that is to be deluded. Christianity promotes guilt, and the way to assuage that feeling is to be a good Christian.
There is another type of organisation that uses guilt to coerce its members. It's called a cult. In many ways Christianity is like a cult.
I would dearly like Christians to be honest with themselves. Honest in a very deep way, that includes the reason that they do the things they do.
For instance, when praying for your enemy, what are you really doing? You are being 'better' than them. How lowly it is to hate your enemy. I am so evolved, I don't hate my enemy, I pray for him. "God, please help him to come around. He is misguided". When what they are really saying is "I am being a good Christian now, praying for my enemy. This makes me feel good".
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Post by AuntieSocial on Oct 28, 2004 7:07:37 GMT -5
My biggest problem with Christianity (and this can be said about Islam, and ay other major religion as well) is the control aspect of organized religion, the divisive nature of religion, the acts of atrocity committed in the name of that religion ... I do not have an issue with most religious individuals. My issues begin when a group of any particular religion band together and try to assert that their religion is the basis of how we should all live our lives, especially when they use threats of violence, criminal prosecution or actual acts of violence/persecution to enforce their ideals. (And, to be fair, I will say that this also extends to political ideologies as well, i.e. Stalism, and Pol Pot). To focus on Christianity, as this title requests: - The Crusades
- The Inquisition
- The annihilation of indigenous populations worldwide
- Witch hunts, in Salem and in Europe
- Subjegation of women
- Slavery (and the continued justification of slavery based on the Bible)
- Bombing abortion clinics, killing abortion doctors
- Persecution of homosexuals, in the media, goverment and in society (Anyone remember Matthew Shepard?)
- The holocaust (WWII Germany)
- Attempts, both historically and today, to interfer or halt scientific and medical advances
- Refusing medical attention to their ill, especially children (Christian Science, JW, other sects use exorcism instead of seeking medical attention)
- Attempts, both historically and today, to insert religious teachings into the public education systems
- The practice of ostrasization by several sects (Catholicism, Mormonism, JWs, amongst other have some form of 'disfellowship' that could result in the utter ruin of the disfellowed individual, leaving them alone and unemployable)
- Ego-centric mindset that results from the belief that the world and everythig on it is there for their use (which has resulted in centuries of ecological damage and cruelty to animals)
- The "blood cult" nature of their rituals, which used to include animal and/or human sacrifices (to me, refusing medical attention for a sick person is a form of human sacrifice)
I could probably go on. As I said, my problem is not with individuals. As far as I'm concerned, they can hae their faith, as long as they don't push their faith on the education, governing and health of others.
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 28, 2004 12:14:03 GMT -5
All of the examples you have put down here are people taking the Bible and Christianity out of context, bending Biblical teaching to fit their desires, and acting out of extremity. The above mentioned are not at all examples of Christianity, nor should they be. I cannot stress enough that the Bible does not teach the things you have mentioned- people in their religious zeal and impulsive action have slandered and skewed Christianity.
Hitler was in no way a Christian. Hitler believed Christianity was the "weak man's religion", because it teaches grace, mercy, and humility, none of which Hitler decided to practice. How is Christianity responsible for the Holocaust? That's like saying that all Germans are evil because Hitler was German..
Again, JWs, Mormons, Christian Science, and all that, they have completely skewed the Bible. That is not an accurate representation of Christianity. They cannot even be included or part of Christianity. I think that you have a clouded view of what Christianity is.
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Post by droskey on Oct 28, 2004 13:17:39 GMT -5
EvenThen The examples that were given were the result of Christianity. Actually, I agree with you on the Holocaust. I don't think that Christianity can take the blame there. But it does take the blame for the others. You want to seperate Christianity from the things that it has caused. You can't do that.
What AuntieSocial is gettting at is that Christianity, just like any ideology, can give people an excuse to think that they are absolutely right. That sort of attitude, given political power, can lead to the things that were listed. They have lead to such things. Christianity can say all it wants about loving people and forgiving. But as soon as it sets its dogma up as absolute truth, the minute it says something that might be a little less than loving, it can lead to the very things that AuntieSocial listed. It's not a problem with Christianity, per se. It's an inherent problem with ideologies that are viewed as sacrosanct.
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 28, 2004 15:06:47 GMT -5
No. It happened as a result of peope bending Christianity so that they could justify their misbehavior.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 28, 2004 15:12:24 GMT -5
EvenThen, are you saying that Christianity shouldn't be blamed when people interpret it irrationally? What if Christianity promotes irrationality? Shouldn't it be blamed then?
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 28, 2004 15:57:58 GMT -5
Of course it shouldn't be blamed. The idiots who interpret it irrationally should be blamed.
I don't believe that Christianity is irrational. But, being that I'm on an atheist board, undoubtedly there are those who do believe it is irrational.
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Post by AuntieSocial on Oct 28, 2004 19:29:21 GMT -5
I have not read this entire link, it was passed to me last night ... it is a long read and will require a lot of cross-referencing on my part, but I will put it here for your own critical analysis: Crimes of Christianity by G.W. Foote and J.M. Wheelerjacopo summed up the intention of my post. As I said, I do not have any problem with an individual who has a faith in a deity. It is when those with power and influence (including "mobs") take their ideas and affect those who do not believe as they do. Whether they are "twisted interpretations" or not is immaterial. These atrocities were committed in the name of the "One God". I would also put forth that some of the items on the list do indeed have a Biblical basis. In particular, the Witch hunts (there are references in the OT to burning pagan settlements as an offering to God), slavery and persecution of homosexuals. Ostrasization is also Biblical ... II Cor. 6:14I still assert that Hilter can be listed amongst those who were Christian. Granted, his brand of Christianity is not what many today would consider, it is mixed with a strange form of neo-paganism. - He was raised as a Catholic.
- Comment made by Hitler in 1941 to General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
- He had backing (early in his campaign) from the RCC.
- Pope Pius XII's opinion of his invasion of Russia: "highminded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture."
- He claimed to be doing God's work in his book Mein Kampf ("Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work.").
- From a Christmas rally in 1926 "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."
- In a Reichstag speech in 1938 "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."
- He used blood symbolism in his rallies.
- Hitler biographer, John Toland: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."
- "Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
- "Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
- Hitler was an admirer of Martin Luther (who was a Christian and anti-semetic) "To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
- "The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
- "A man who knows a thing, who is aware of a given danger, and sees the possibility of a remedy with his own eyes, has the duty and obligation, by God, not to work 'silently,' but to stand up before the whole public against the evil and for its cure." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
I think you get my point ... so, tell, was Hitler a Christian? We only have his claims on which to form a decision. It is clear that he believed himself a Christian and that the Roman Catholic Church (who never excommunicated him) also believed him "a Catholic in good standing". I could also add other atrocities (closer to our times) to the list: [/li][li]Catholic/Protestant violence in Ireland [/li][li]The LRA in Uganda [/li][li]Bosnia I could produce a sizable list of the autrocities of Muslims, as well ... my beef is not with the believers, but with the structure and doctrines passed down and justified by those in power of the religious organizations. It extends only to those individuals who don't stop to question the doctrines and allow these autrocities to happen out of blind faith and adherence to their particular religious sect.
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Post by droskey on Oct 28, 2004 19:53:13 GMT -5
EvenThen But the point is that it is easy for people to bend an ideology to justify their misbehavior. When and ideology makes the tacit assumption that it is infallible (i.e. not of man), then it is a sure bet that someone somewhere will try to use it as a justification for doing something wrong. That is what I don't like most about religion. Religion is about adopting an ideology to everyday life. I believe that ideologies whose basic tenants you are not supposed to question are inherently dangerous. This applies to all such ideologies be they theistic, atheistic or agnostic.
To say that all people who do bad under the guise of Christianity are not really following Christianity is missing the point. The point is that Christianities absolutist nature lends itself to such "abuse" and "misinterpretation".
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 29, 2004 17:07:53 GMT -5
Absolutely not. If you knew anything about what the Bible teaches, it would be clearly obvious to you that Christ teaches love, forgiveness, and mercy. It is not Christianity's fault that some mindless idiots got some crazy ideas and decided to act on them.
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