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Post by droskey on Oct 29, 2004 17:16:55 GMT -5
EvenThen I actually know quite a bit about what is written in the Bible. When I was a Christian, I would have made a similar arguement as you have made here. But you are consistently missing my point. This issue is not how EvenThen interprets the words of Christ. The issue is ideologies that appeal to absolute values can be used to justify all sorts of behavior. It isn't that they can be misinterpreted (or interpreted differently). It is that they represent themselves as universal and exempt from skepticism.
I'll let someone else address the issue about whether or not the New Testament teaches only love and mercy.
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 29, 2004 17:24:58 GMT -5
I disagree strongly, but I will not be redundant.
I don't recall using the word "only".
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Post by droskey on Oct 29, 2004 17:43:10 GMT -5
EvenThen Well, if you don't allege that it teaches only love and mercy then that just supports my point. If it teaches anything else (which I hold that it does) and also claims to be the infallible, absolute truth, then it falls into the category of dangerous ideology that we have just been discussing. You can see how it would be very easy for someone to latch onto the not so loving and merciful aspects of the NT to further their own warped or misquided sense of right and wrong. Now it isn't Christianities fault per se that these people do this, but as I said before, Christianity lends itself to such abuse because of the claims to infallibility and transcendence that it makes.
Besides, your original question was "what problems do you have with Christianity." I have a problem with the fact that it is an ideology that claims transendence and absolute authority for the reasons that we have been discussing. It is a fact that people who wish to impose inhuman and arbitrary rules of conduct on others routinely make use of Christianity and other religions to do so. The fact that Christianity is so popular makes it that much easier to do.
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 29, 2004 17:47:30 GMT -5
Love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, self sacrifice, etc. Thats what I meant when I pointed out that it's more than just love and forgiveness...
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Post by AuntieSocial on Oct 29, 2004 19:03:21 GMT -5
Additional lessons in the NT: Intolerence, Indifference, Derogatory (possibly racist) comments, Exclusive salvation, Slavery, Worthlessness, Hatred for your family, Derelection of Duties to your Family With respect to slavery, I came across a series of Pro-Slavery essays that were written prior to the Civil War in the U.S. One chapter deals with Biblical Justification of Slavery. I have posted the Chapter on my website. You may not agree that these men are Christians, but the doctrines are there in black & white. Please take the time to read it. It is an example of how "Christians" have interpreted the Bible in order to further their cause. In this case, I don't think that there was much "mis"interpretation. Unfortuately, the Greek characters didn't come through on the website because of the editor I was using. I have attempted a transliteration. I will eventually replace this page with one produced on an editor that can handle Greek characters. Pro-Slavery Arguments: 02 - Bledsloe's Liberty and Slavery (1860) Pages 337-380
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kronus
Maverick's Chew Toy
A closet atheist. looking for communication with fellow freethinkers.
Posts: 19
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Post by kronus on Oct 31, 2004 14:01:49 GMT -5
How can a person love when they are being threatened with punishment if they dont? Love God or go the hell. Fear based relationship can not generate love. Love is not a choice, it is an emotion.
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Post by millerrevolt on Nov 3, 2004 0:06:15 GMT -5
morality based on what? wouldnt an atheist's morality be what he/she decides it to be? so therefore every atheist is moral; more moral than any christian could ever be. or maybe i missed something
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Nov 3, 2004 12:38:32 GMT -5
A non-Christian morality could hypothetically be based on the same basic ideas or material that a Christian follows, minus the belief that it is divinely inspired. A Christian doesn't consult God directly on detailed topics (unless of some extreme delusional mental health issue), but rather learns their morality through upbringing, lessons, reading, etc. Anyway, this topic has been thoroughly discussed, and you might find more responses on other threads.
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Post by vertigo on Nov 3, 2004 13:58:13 GMT -5
Read Ayn Rand to get a good primer.
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Post by EvenThen on Nov 4, 2004 11:58:45 GMT -5
But where does this morality come from? If we are simply evolved animals, then where did we get this moral sense? Being "evolved animals", we could not have learned morals simply from experience. We do not get our sense of right and wrong from experience- how did we decide that taking another's life is wrong? That stealing is wrong? We did not take that from experience. It has to have come from somewhere else.
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Nov 4, 2004 12:04:34 GMT -5
But where does this morality come from? If we are simply evolved animals, then where did we get this moral sense? Being "evolved animals", we could not have learned morals simply from experience. We do not get our sense of right and wrong from experience- how did we decide that taking another's life is wrong? That stealing is wrong? We did not take that from experience. It has to have come from somewhere else. empathy ....learned over time
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Post by EvenThen on Nov 4, 2004 12:48:02 GMT -5
But how do we learn empathy? Do animals know empathy? Of course they don't, you can't be taught empathy. It is not something you can glean from an experience, it has to come from elsewhere.
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Nov 4, 2004 14:12:16 GMT -5
But how do we learn empathy? Do animals know empathy? Of course they don't, you can't be taught empathy. It is not something you can glean from an experience, it has to come from elsewhere. Sorry but I think we do learn to empathise with other living things..We learn from our experiences in life and the experiences that society has learned from our ancestors... When a person cries with pain, we know that they are suffering because we have felt pain ourselves..we empathise with them. Do you suggest we empathise because of some godly reason?
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Nov 4, 2004 14:35:45 GMT -5
But where does this morality come from? If we are simply evolved animals, then where did we get this moral sense? Being "evolved animals", we could not have learned morals simply from experience. I could ask the same question from you, except that you defer to a deity. It comes from our cerebral cortex (which distinguishes us from the average animal, so get over the advanced animal thing - we are very different physiogically), and a whole lot of time. Same place the church got it from and continues to hack it out to this day when new issues arrise.
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Post by Superhappyjen on Nov 4, 2004 15:11:25 GMT -5
I agree the with Auntiesocial and others. My biggest beef with Christianity is all the stuff some poeple do or say in its name. It's just too easy to say "because the bible says" or "because God wants it". It eliminates the need for people to think for themselves.
An example would be intolerence of homosexuals. I don't know how many times I've heard a Christian say "the bible says it's wrong". This argument should never be used as the sole reason for an action, argument, or intolerence.
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