subjective confermation of God

[william]

Ive been thinking about the devide between the believer and the atheist, about those that are sure there is a God and those that are equaly certian there is no God. I have known very inteligent and edducated theists and since jioning Atheists Anonymous, I have enjoyed meeting many here who are quite brilliant atheists. So what sepatrates them? Our new friend The Hack has said that it may involve a Gene that causes one to believe ( the predestination crowd will love that) if I understand correctly. I believe it was GodsRUs that sudgested that we may create our own reality with our minds, that might be pertinant to this thread. I believe that a theist first chooses as an act of will, based on various degrees of evidence or as some have pionted out no evidence, to believe. then when a person makes that chioce to seek God, God acts in subtle ways(sometimes not so subtle) to reviel Himself to that person. then you have the person who goes from the person who says I believe there is a God to the person who says I know there is a God. Now I know that some people are quick to asign things to the hand of God, I myself have had to sit quietly trying not to role my eyes while I listen to a testimony of how God protected them from harm because if they had left their home 10 minutes later they might hve been in that intersection when that car ran the red light and caused the accident. I mean events that are not so easily explained away. So my theory is that the atheist, having never made such a decision, misses out on these things and there for is left to assume that the believer is either an idiot, irrational or both. Im looking forward to all of your thoughts.

[droskey]

I think that your description of believers might be accurate in some sense. However, I have my doubts about it covering the whole spectrum of believers. And I know that it doesn't adequately explain the experiences of all atheists. For instance, many of us here on this board (myself included) were once theists. There was a significant portion of my life when I believed in a personal god. There were times that I KNEW that god existed and there were times that I just made the conscious decision to hang onto faith even though I had some serious doubts. Even though I made a conscious decision to try to have faith, over the course of many years, no god revealed itself to me. So at one time I "knew" that a personal god existed but know I doubt that that sort of god is real. And the world makes a lot more sense now than it did when I believed.

[solidsquid]

A bit of information I've found.

Borg, Jacqueline et tal. "The Serotonin System and Spiritual Experiences." American Journal of Psychiatry 160:11 (2003): 1965-1968.

A role for the serotonin system was suggested early on from subjective experiences induced by mind-altering drugs, such as LSD and psilocybin.
Central serotonergic neurons originate from the raphe nuclei in the brainstem and innervate major brain regions, such as the hypothalamus, the limbic system, the striatum, and the neocortex. Fourteen serotonin receptor subtypes have thus far been identified in the human brain.

A specific autoreceptor seems to be the active one in this study and proposed to be the active one affecting spiritual experience.

Presynaptic 5-HT 1A autoreceptors are highly concentrated on cell bodies in the raphe and mediate the inhibition of cell firing and serotonin release in all projection areas. Thus the 5-ht 1A receptor may have a role as general regulator of serotonergic activity.

The values for binding potential correlated significantly with the self-transcendence dimension but not with any of the other six Temperament and Character Inventory dimensions. The self-transcendence dimension is a composite of three distinct subscales that describe aspects of spirituality.
Scores for spiritual acceptance versus material rationalism correlated significantly with 5-HT 1A binding potential for all three regions.

The appearence of the correlation on the one scale shows a concentration and therefore a link to the activity.

The self-transcendence dimension consists of three subscales representing several aspects of religious behavior, subjective experience, and individual worldview...we found that the correlation of self-transcendence was shown to be fully dependent on the spiritual acceptance scale.

Oddly enough, hallicnogenic drugs seem to promote the same response.

...such pharmacological effects induced by hallucinogens resemble the extrasensory perception and ideation endorsed by subjects scoring high on the spiritual acceptance scale.

So what the hell does it all mean?

These observations support the hypothesis that the physiological role of the serotonin system includes inhibition of sensory stimuli and arousal...One interpretation of the present finding is that subjects with low 5-HT 1A receptor density have sparse serotonergic innervation and thereby a weaker filtering function, allowing for increased perception and decreased inhibition.

Found this in the International Journal of Neuroscience:

The isoprenoid pathway was assessed in atheistic and spiritually inclined individuals. The pathway was also assessed in individuals with differing hemispheric dominance to assess whether hemispheric dominance has a correlation with spiritual and atheistic tendency. HMG CoA reductase activity, serum digoxin, RBC membrane Na+-K+ ATPase activity, serum magnesium, and tyrosine/tryptophan catabolic patterns were assessed in spiritual/atheistic individuals and in those differing hemispheric dominance. In spiritually-inclined individuals, there was increased digoxin synthesis, decreased membrane Na+-K+ ATPase activity, increased tryptophan catabolites (serotonin, quinolinic acid, and nicotine), and decreased tyrosine catabolites (dopamine, noradrenaline, and morphine). The pattern in spiritually-inclined individuals correlated with right hemispheric chemical dominance. In atheistic individuals there was decreased digoxin synthesis, increased membrane Na+-K+ ATPase activity, decreased tryptophan catabolites, quinolinic acid, and nicotine), and increased tyrosine catabolites (dopamine, noradrenaline, and morphine). This pattern in atheistic individuals correlated with that obtained in the left hemispheric chemical dominance. Hemispheric chemical dominance could regulate the predisposition to spirituality or atheism.

Interesting enough, okay what are they getting at? Well:

Spirituality is one of the most evolved of human emotions. Spiritual tendencies have been related to temporal lobe epileptic phenomena. Previous studies have demonstrated Na+-K+ ATPase inhibition and elevated levels of an endogenous inhibitor of membrane Na+-K+ ATPase in seizure disorder. Digoxin is as steroidal glycoside and is reported to be synthesized by the human hypothalamus via the isoprenoid pathway. Digoxin can modulate the neuronal membrane transport of amino acids and can regulate synaptic transmission. Therefore, it was considered pertinent to study the digoxin synthesis and neurotransmitter patterns in individuals who are spiritually inclined or atheistic. Since digoxin can regulate multiple neurotransmitter systems, it could also play a role in the genesis of cerebral dominance.

So....

Digoxin can inhibit membrane Na+-K+ ATPase activity. Membrane Na+-K+ ATPase inhibition can lead to an increase in intracellular calcium and a reduction in intracellular magnesium. Inhibition of Na+-K+ ATPase can also result in defective neuronal membrane repolarization and a paroxysmal deplarization shift resulting in epieptogenesis. Temporal lobe epileptic phenomena have been documented in spiritually inclined individuals...The low levels of dopamine and morphine in spiritually-inclined individuals leads to a detached behavior important in spiritual evolution. The increased serotonin levels documented here is also significant, as serotonin is a positive modulator of the excitotoxic NMDA receptor and could contribute to temporal lobe epileptogenesis.

While all this is interesting, the problem is in the small group. Only 15 individuals were utilized for this research. A larger group study would be in order and with other variables such as cultural differences represented but the basis of spiritual or non-spiritual maintained. I will continue to be on the lookout for other studies that might validate or contradict this.

[solidsquid]

Some more:

Some information on temporal lobe epilepsy:

www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/epilepsy_temporallobe.html

www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrainqa.shtml

From the BBC link:

How does Dr Persinger induce artificially religious experiences in his patients?

Dr Persinger has designed a helmet that produces a very weak rotating magnetic field of between ten nanotesla and one microtesla over the temporal lobes of the brain. This is placed on the subject's head and they are placed in a quiet chamber while blindfolded. So that there is no risk of 'suggestion', the only information that the subjects are given is that they are going in for a relaxation experiment. Neither the subject nor the experimenter carrying out the test has any idea of the true purpose of the experiment. In addition to this, the experiment is also run with the field switched both off and on. This procedure Dr Persinger claims will induce an experience in over 80% of test subjects.

What sort of experiences do subjects report?

This is very dependent on the belief system of the individual subjects. Dr Persinger talks about his subjects feeling a 'sensed presence' - feeling that somebody was in the chamber with them. Subjects who are strongly religious are likely to interpret this presence as god. Whereas, atheists may also report a 'sensed presence' but attribute the phenomena to a trick of brain chemistry, perhaps comparable to when they have taken drugs in the past.

Interesting other tidbits:
home.christianity.com/ministries/scienceministries/45617.html

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=76087047

The interictal behavior syndrome of temporal lobe epilepsy.

Waxman SG, Geschwind N.

A distinct syndrome of interictal behavior changes occurs in many patients with temporal lobe epilepsy. These changes include alterations in sexual behavior, religiosity, and a tendency toward extensive, and in some cases compulsive, writing and drawing. The concomitants of abnormal limbic acitivity therefore include behavior alterations as well as manifest seizures. The demonstration of interictal spike activity in temporal structures provides a pathophysiologic basis for this syndrome. The constellation of behavioral changes may be of great diagnostic value. In addition, it provides an example of a human behavioral syndrome assocaited with dysfunction at specific anatomic loci. The behavior syndrome of temporal lobe epilepsy may prove to be a useful model in studies on the neural substrates for behavior.

Here's something in a different area of research:

D’Onofrio, M., Eaves, L., Murrelle, L., Maes, H., Spilka, B. Journal of Personality 67:6,
December 1999:

Although the transmission of religiousness has been assumed to be purely cultural,
behavior genetic studies have demonstrated that genetic factors play a role in the individual
differences in some religious traits.

In the layman world, it is mostly assumed to be purely a product of environment whether or not
certain religious behaviors are adopted. On the most part as for: what denomination, religious or
spiritual, etc (the smaller deviance), environment showed to be the dominant determinant.

In a 1986 study of two large samples of adult twins:

...found that significant contributions to social attitudes related to observance of the
Sabbath, divine law, authority of the church, and truthfulness of the Bible were made by both
additive and genetic effects and the shared environment. Heritability estimates ranged from .22
to .35 and estimates for the influence of the shared environment ranged from .18 to .34 for the
individual items, illustrating that familial correlations in these domains are influenced by genetic
factors as well as the environment.

As for the section of religious behavior and salience:

Although slight genetic component is found in females, genetic factors do not play a role
in the church attendance of males.

and in summary:

...family resemblance in religious affiliation appears to be primarily cultural as might be
expected, whereas religious attitudes and behaviors seem to be influenced by additive genetic
effects as well as the shared and unshared environment. Sociological and behavior research on
the transmission or inheritance of religious beliefs and practices can no longer ignore genetic
influences.

So this might lead one to suppose that such religious tendencies might be part of a certain
personality, however:

The correlations with personality are all small, mostly less than 0.1. Thus there is very
little reason to suppose that church attendance reflects personality much, in so far as Eysensck’s
measures capture the essentials contours of the human personality.

Although one correlation did stand out:

...the Religious Right factor is more strongly associated with these factors – a moderate
negative correlation (-0.23 and -0.23) with “unselfish” fiscal attitudes related to issues of
taxation, a moderate positive correlation with promilitary attitudes (0.33 and 0.35), and a
moderate negative correlation with Democratic versus Republican political ideology (-0.20 and -
0.19), meaning that they are more likely to espouse those tenets associated with being
Republican

Which tells us empirically what we’ve known for a while socially.

Also, the findings see that:

...it is obvious that religion is, at most, only partly a function
of the personality dimensions..

In summation:

Religious behaviors and attitudes...such as church attendance and the tendency to espouse
more conservative religious values, including some of those normally espoused by the Religious
Right, show varying degrees of genetic inheritance beyond that provided by the family
environment and assortative mating...the largest single component of variance is that due to the
environmental differences among members of the same family...there is a larger genetic
component contributing to church attendance and Religious Right social attitudes in women,
driven mostly by the nonadditive genetic effects...the larger correlations between relatives for
religious behaviors and attitudes display a much greater nongenetic component...the correlations
between mates for religious behavior and attitudes are among the largest known, comparable to
and even exceeding those for monozygotic twins. This correlation significantly adds to the
genetic component of church attendance and the Religious Right factor.

The study was conducted utilizing a sample of 14,781 twins (in Virginia) and their family
members, including their parents, spouses, children, and siblings. Almost all were Caucasian
(99.8%). Of those, most were Protestant (65.8%) followed by Catholic, Jewish and finally by the
“unspecified”. Their personality domains were based on short scales using the Eysenck
Personality Questionnaire with the help of Dr. Eysenck.

Found some other interesting views into the neurofunctioning of the 'religious' mind. From the European Journal of Neuroscience*:

The subjects tested were of the "Free Evangelical Fundamentalist Community" in Germany. They all had supposedly had a documented religious experience. They also all interpret biblical text literally. Anyway, here's a synopsis of the findings:

We studied a group of self-identified religious subjects, who attributed their religious experiences to a biblical psalm, in order to explore for the first time using functional neuroimaging the brain areas involved in religious experience. While the view that religious experience is a preconceptual feeling would predict the activation of limbic brain areas engaged by emotion, attribution theory would predict brain areas mediating reasoning to be activated. We show that, during religious recitation, religious subjects activated a frontal-parietal circuit composed of the dorsolateral prefrontal, drosomedial frontal and medial parietal cortex, suggesting that religious experience may be a cognitive process.

And furthermore:

Recent neuropsychological and functional imaging studies suggest that the prefrontal cortex holds representations of knowledge structured in the form of cognitive schemas. Cognitive schemas are mental representations containing organized prior knowledge about specific domains, inclusive of specifications of the causal relations among the attributes therein. Religious attributions are made in accordance with religious schemas, which consist in organized knowledge about religion and religious issues, and include reinforced structures for inferring religiously related causality of experience events.

Contrary to what others have found surrounding the activation of the limbic system and emotional centers of the brain, these researchers found:

...the religious experience was not an emotional experience, nor an arousal comparable to that of the happy state which we observed in the non-religious subjects [when the participates were read from a children's book]...A challenge for the future work will be to explore transient religious states and the evolution of other varieties of religious experience. It may turn out that 'religious experience' can be divided eventually into a variety of subprocesses as has been, for example, with memory.

I tend to agree with their last speculation. Although, further research is needed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Nina P. Azari et tal. "Short Communication: Neural correlates of religious experience" European Journal of Neuroscience Vol. 13 2001.

[solidsquid]

Organ music 'instils religious feelings'
By Jonathan Amos
BBC News Online science staff, in Salford

People who experience a sense of spirituality in church may be reacting to the extreme bass sound produced by some organ pipes.

Many churches and cathedrals have organ pipes that are so long they emit infrasound which at a frequency lower than 20 Hertz is largely inaudible to the human ear.

But in a controlled experiment in which infrasound was pumped into a concert hall, UK scientists found they could instil strange feelings in the audience at will.

These included an extreme sense of sorrow, coldness, anxiety and even shivers down the spine.

Sound 'gun'

Infrasound has become the subject of intense study in recent years. Researchers have found that some animals, such as elephants, can communicate with low-frequency calls.

Infrasound can be detected at volcanoes and may provide a way to predict eruptions.


INFRASOUND STUDY
Lies in the range 10-20 Hz
On the cusp of our hearing
Can vibrate internal organs
Volcanoes emit infrasound
Elephants and whales use it

And recent work by some of the scientists involved in this latest study found that hauntings - the feeling that something or someone else unseen is in a room or building - may also be explained by the presence of infrasound.

To test the impact on an audience of extreme bass notes from an organ pipe, researchers constructed a seven-metre-long "infrasonic cannon" which they placed at the back of the Purcell Room, a concert hall in South London.

They then invited 750 people to report their feelings after listening to pieces of contemporary music intermittently laced sound from the cannon, played a 17 Hz at levels of 6-8 decibels.

Feel the bass

The results showed that odd sensations in the audience increased by an average of 22% when the extreme bass was present.

"It has been suggested that because some organ pipes in churches and cathedrals produce infrasound this could lead to people having weird experiences which they attribute to God," said Professor Richard Wiseman, a psychologist from University of Hertfordshire.

"Some of the experiences in our audience included 'shivering on my wrist', 'an odd feeling in my stomach', 'increased heart rate', 'feeling very anxious', and 'a sudden memory of emotional loss'.

"This was an experiment done under controlled conditions and it shows infrasound does have an impact, and that has implications... in a religious context and some of the unusual experiences people may be having in certain churches."

Sarah Angliss, an engineer and composer in charge of the project, added: "Organ players have been adding infrasound to the mix for 500 years so maybe we're not the first generation to be 'addicted to bass'."

Details of the organ infrasound study are being presented to the British Association's annual science festival, which this year is in Salford, Greater Manchester.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3087674.stm

[william]

so your saying ,that when we have faith God changes our brain? the Bible does say "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" Once again, Science has vindicated the Bible! thanx Squid! ;D

just kidding! You did find some cool stuff there, though some of it reminded me I should have went to collage, or atleast paid attention in high school.

Im not sure that these theorys can explain some of the events Im thinking of, but im hoping a few more people might jion our discusion befor I offer them for your consideration.

[william]

jacopo said:

I think that your description of believers might be accurate in some sense. However, I have my doubts about it covering the whole spectrum of believers. And I know that it doesn't adequately explain the experiences of all atheists. For instance, many of us here on this board (myself included) were once theists. There was a significant portion of my life when I believed in a personal god. There were times that I KNEW that god existed and there were times that I just made the conscious decision to hang onto faith even though I had some serious doubts. Even though I made a conscious decision to try to have faith, over the course of many years, no god revealed itself to me. So at one time I "knew" that a personal god existed but know I doubt that that sort of god is real. And the world makes a lot more sense now than it did when I believed.

you are correct, and I have considderd that,and I am at a loss to explain it. I know it had nothing to do with being rightous, I had a huge porn collection when God really reveiled Himself to me, I destoyed it shortly after, but I was no saint. but I can say I was seeking God with all my heart.

[william]

Squid, how do they know what is the cause and what is the effect? Do those that beleive have different brain Chemistery because they believe or do they believe because they have different brain Chemicals?

[solidsquid]

That's not certain, that would be another aspect to research...longitudal studies would be ideal but are very difficult. Comparison between younger individuals and older ones of the same lineage might help as well. This area is very sparse in the research, many researchers cannot get funding for such research, many get "advised" not to go into that area et cetera and many avoid it all together just to stave off controversy.

Although more research will give more insight, it will also give more questions. Good thinking William.

[william]

let me try to make a long story short. my church has a split and looses the guitar player and the organist. so the church begins to pray for replasements. meanwhile a couple moves to town and is looking for a church to jion and the man has a persitant image in his mind of a man behind a podium. this couple is charismatic so they begin to check out the penticostal chuches. each time they go the pastor doesnt fit the picture in the mans head and although the people are nice they just know it not were they are to go. so they go to the 4 square and other carismatic churches to no avail, they dont find the guy in the image in the guys head and begin to doubt the imige in his head is even from God. so they tell the pastor at the last church they go to about this guy he keeps seeing behind the podium and tells him that they had been certain that if they found this guy that that would be the church they were supposed to jion. this pastor tells them they should check out our church, and tells them its a baptist church,but its not tipical of a baptist pastor or congregation(carismatics and Baptists dont usualy mix),though they are sceptical they come to our church and as soon as he sees our pastor they know that they are were they are ment to stay, he was the man that they had never met but was the man that Tom had seen behind the pulpit in his mind. they never would have ended up going to a baptist church had it not been for the persistent image in Toms mind.
now , need I tell you what insterments they play?

these are the types of things that Im refering to when I say things happen that seem to conferm what we believe. I have had my own such event but I thought this one was shorter.

[droskey]

Unfortunately, william, these are the kinds of things that aren't very convincing. First, you are relating a story that is 2nd hand or even 3rd hand. This man told you about the image that he had in his head. You have to take his word on it. But you really don't know how accurate that image was. Was it a true "image"? Before meeting your pastor could he have drawn a picture of your pastor that you would have recognized? My suspicion was that the image that this guy had was more of a general feeling. He went to various churches until he happened upon your church and it "felt" right to him. Therefore, the image in his head was changed to match your pastor. That is the more likely explanation.

william

need I tell you what insterments they play?

Lots of people play guitar and/or the piano/organ. I play the guitar and my sister used to play the piano. I know at least three people that can play the guitar. I don't see this as confirmation of anything.

[william]

jacopo7531 said:

Unfortunately, william, these are the kinds of things that aren't very convincing. First, you are relating a story that is 2nd hand or even 3rd hand. This man told you about the image that he had in his head. You have to take his word on it. But you really don't know how accurate that image was. Was it a true "image"? Before meeting your pastor could he have drawn a picture of your pastor that you would have recognized? My suspicion was that the image that this guy had was more of a general feeling. He went to various churches until he happened upon your church and it "felt" right to him. Therefore, the image in his head was changed to match your pastor. That is the more likely explanation.

william

need I tell you what insterments they play?

Lots of people play guitar and/or the piano/organ. I play the guitar and my sister used to play the piano. I know at least three people that can play the guitar. I don't see this as confirmation of anything.

yes there is the possibility that he and his wife are lieing,
and I could tell you my story and you would be in the same possition to assume I am lieing. but my orriginal point is that when we as believers have these things happen it bolsters our own faith and we go from believing in God to being certain there is a God.

Personaly I dont think Tom or his wife would lie, they are very devout and wonderful people. yes lots of people play those instroments but they didnt show up at a church that they otherwise would never have considerd going to, that was praying for those talents.

[GodsAreUs]

Being that we do create our own reality, I don’t think it’s really possible to confirm or deny, outside of an individual’s own consciousness, that there are/are not cathartic events that would lead one to believe. One’s road to God is another’s car accident where they were “lucky” not to be killed (which is kind of ironic when you consider the promise of heaven). I brought up the “God” gene at one point and it was promptly squashed by squid. That’s ok. Squid takes the black and white pure-science-or-bust road to truth and that’s just fine. I also prefer science over blind faith, but I also believe that there are some things that scientific theory can not account for, including the fact that there are as many different individual perceptions and personalities as there are people (more if you account for split personalities and schizophrenics). That’s why I’ve always held a measure of contempt for the field of psychology; feeling it’s more of a generalization of humanity than an actual working model from which one may draw realistic, individual-specific inferences. The mind is a ridiculously huge, unfathomably complex organism. At this stage of evolution, we simply don’t know enough to be able to make solid statements regarding why people feel the way they do.

[droskey]

william

yes there is the possibility that he and his wife are lieing,

I wasn't talking about lieing. I was talking about them creatively filling in details about their supposed visions. Human perception and memory has been shown to be very subjective and contextual. People can convince themselves of things that simply aren't true relatively easily. So without some way to actively and independently test claims, second hand accounts or accounts about what a person "feels" are somewhat worthless to all but the person who is doing the feeling.

william

yes lots of people play those instroments but they didnt show up at a church that they otherwise would never have considerd going to, that was praying for those talents.

I think that you are probably assigning an unreasonably low probability to charasmatics attending a Baptist church.

[godslayer]

heres an interesting explanation/theory why such irrational religious beliefs as theists have ,can be, or were at some time,..actualy a good thing..
www.atheists.org/Atheism/music.html