The main point

[dan]

[NOTE: This post has changed from its original form. Responses that others have made to this post below deal with the original post. Some content of the original post is not found in this updated version, and visa versa.]

Do you consider yourself a good person?

To find out, take the "Good Test" (Based on the Ten Commandments in the Bible):

-Have you ever stolen anything?
-Have you ever lied?
-Have you ever hated anyone? ("Whoever hates his brother is a murderer" - from I John)
-Have you ever committed adultery? ("Whoever looks on a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" - according to Jesus)
-Have you ever taken God's name in vain?
-Have you ever dishonored your parents?

If can say "No" to all of the above, then congratulations, you're a good person! If not, then here's something to consider:

If you stand before God on Judgment Day, will you be found innocent or guilty based on your actions?

Let me word it differently: If you break three state laws (for example, speeding, drug possession, and trespassing), and you go to court, will you be found innocent or guilty?

Since God is just and good, He cannot compromise morality or overlook the wrong things we've done, right?

You might say, "Well, I've only done a few things wrong, but I'm generally a good person." That's fine, but that still doesn't change anything about what you have done wrong. For instance, suppose a thief is caught and sent to court. He says to the judge, "I haven't killed anyone, I don't use drugs, and I treat my family well. Why do I have to go to prison?" Of course the thief would still need to be punished. It works the same way in God's court: whether I've broken 2 or 20 laws, it is still considered "lawbreaking" and God will hold me accountable for it.

If we're honest with ourselves, we would realize that not one person is innocent of breaking God's law, myself being a prime example, unfortunately. So God must give all of us justice, and that is the whole purpose of hell.

But since God loves mankind, He didn't want to simply give us justice. So He found a way to give us mercy without violating His standard of morality:

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3-4).

"The LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).

In other words, during the crucifixion, Christ was punished in our place for our sins, and thus He became a substitute for us. Someone has "paid" for our sins, so to speak. All that stealing, lust, hatred, adultery, selfishness, was put on Christ. Now God has a basis on which to forgive us of our sins, without violating His standard of righteousness. Now the ball's in our court; we can either

(1) Repent and put our faith in Christ, resulting in forgiveness of all our wrongdoing (our sin record will be "cleared"); or
(2) Reject Christ, resulting in having to pay for our lawless deeds personally, and for the additional offense of rejecting God's Son.

The choice is ours to make, and it is essential that we make the right one.

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19).

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Jesus, in Matthew 13:41-42).

"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Jesus, in Luke 13:3).

"He who believes in him [the Son] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).

"God...will render to each one according to his deeds...[One] day God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ" (Romans 2:5-6, 16).

[necroshine]

Back to square one I guess. We have all heard this before. From people here to when I went to church. I have heard this when I was in the pews. I don’t believe any of it. You are not going to change me. But with the attack I’m going to do my best to change you. Its only fair.

I realize that I will be assuming that Christianity is true throughout this post, but at least hear me out.

Why do you assume? You are an atheist against 6000 other gods why is this one any different?

It all starts with a huge question: where are you going after you die? Are you ready for what may be on the other side?

I don’t know what happens when you die and you have no clue either. You have never died yet so you don’t know. What did you do before you were born? The question is just as crazy as being concerned about doing something after you die. When you die game over.

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins

That is gods fault. He made us the way we are. if there is a real god among the 6000 there are. your morals goes against thought itself. That is not a code to conduct to follow. If you make a rule against thought and we can not control our thoughts then the law is unjust no matter who makes the law. Even god itself.

On Judgment Day, based on your actions, will you be found innocent or guilty?

I don’t care. If I would ever to stand in front of your god. I would ask how was I supposed to act when most people on this earth is trying to kill each other? That is because of religious differences. If god wanted to know that he was real what is to stop him from appearing to everyone on the planet at the same time? You want me to know you are real then I need something to go on besides a 2000 year old book that does not support logic.

Of course the thief would still need to be punished. It works the same way in God's court:

We don’t punish anyone for thoughts. That is the BIG difference. Mankind don’t hold thoughts against anyone. That is absurd.

"Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it

Again absurd d. If your god is going to find me guilty of all sins if I only break one then he is a tyrant. If you can not see the logic I’m telling you then you truly have your eyes closed and are loving it. God is a tyrant. I will be happy to tell him that. screw anyone who would make such laws.

God doesn't grade on a curve, because if He did, He would not really be just and good. God must have a consistent standard for all people and all time.

But in another post you say that god told one man not to greave for the death of his wife but don’t’ hold all men up to the same standard. Stop talking out of both sides of your face. Either we all follow the same rules or we get picked. And mankind and found out that you have to grade on a curve. It only logical to do that. do you think you should be killed for running a stop sign? If we don’t’ judge on a curve then we sould all die for doing to smallest of offences. Its irrational. And anyone who thinks this is just a looney.

Since God loves mankind, He didn't want to simply give us justice. So He found a way to give us mercy without violating His standard of morality:

What hell? how is it just to send me to hell for thinking about having sex with someone I don’t know? How is it just to send someone to hell that don’t worship god when he had never heard of god? It is absurd to do that. god is the least logical things man kind as ever invented.

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

Yaaa! Big deal. He is a god and by definition he can not die. He came from heaven just to go back to heaven. I fail to see how he accomplished anything. If god wanted to forgive us then he would just do so. Nothing is stopping him.

Unless you repent you will all likewise perish"

I would rather be in hell then in a heaven that has child molesters in it.

He who believes in him [the Son] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

That would mean all the jews, gods chosen people will go to hell. absurd

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved

nlm

God...will render to each one according to his deeds...[One] day God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ

I thought you said if you break one rule you break all of them? Then why judge us by our deeds? Your talking out of both sides of you mouth again. Plus god is stupid to compare us the sinning to someone who has never sinned. Its absurd.

[Dragon*of*Heaven]

A law that is unfair is unjust. Under that notion I state Dan, that your God is unjust. That which is unjust is not in its state of perfect goodness. The act of injustice is a flaw in which a fundamentaly perfect being cannot enact. I state that you God is unjust, on the basis of the fact that he bases an eternity on what is now a maximum of about one hundred and twenty years of life on earth. He bases our eternity on that and you claim him just? You are a fool Dan.

[dan]

necroshine said:

I realize that I will be assuming that Christianity is true throughout this post, but at least hear me out.

Why do you assume?

I was assuming just for the purpose of presenting the main point in Christianity (called the "gospel"), without getting into other issues for the moment. Now that you've brought up some objections, I will attempt to actually defend the assumption.

I don’t know what happens when you die and you have no clue either. You have never died yet so you don’t know.

It's just a question to consider, and an important one at that, if there is a God. The fact that your eternal destiny could be at stake makes it important.

That is gods fault. He made us the way we are.

How? As I pointed out earlier, the Bible states that "God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes" (Ecc. 7). God created Adam and Eve morally pure, and gave them the ability to choose whether or not they would obey Him. They abused that power, and ever since then every man and woman has sinned.

There is some merit to what you are saying, however. I think you are trying to point out that according to Christian teaching everyone is born in sin ("original sin"). That is correct, but then the issue is, what will you do once you discover that you are a sinner? Will you repent and return to God, or will you suppress that truth and continue living the way you want to? The Bible seems to indicate that God sends people to hell typically because of their personal choice to continue to live in sin, not simply because they were born with original sin.

your morals goes against thought itself. That is not a code to conduct to follow.

How can you say that? Certainly thoughts alone can be evil. For instance, if I hated someone and fantasized about killing the person, that would obviously be evil, even if I never actually commit the act. God would be strange indeed if He only cared about actions and words, but not thoughts.

Suppose someone goes through his whole life hating people, thinking about murder, and fantasizing about sexually immoral acts, but never actually does anything. He then dies and stands before God on Judgment Day, and God says, "You've done nothing wrong, come on in to heaven." That would be ridiculous.

I would ask how was I supposed to act when most people on this earth is trying to kill each other?

He would tell you not to worry about other people, but to do what you know you're supposed to do. Of course, you should do what you can to help others find the right path, but you shouldn't use others' failure as an excuse to not go on the right path yourself.

If god wanted to know that he was real what is to stop him from appearing to everyone on the planet at the same time?

Of course He could do this, but this isn't necessary. As the great scientist Francis Bacon said, "God never wrought a miracle to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it." God has left enough evidence of design in the universe to point to the fact that He exists, and He has also given us an inner sense of right vs. wrong. In addition to that evidence, the historical event of the resurrection of Christ offers further evidence that the God of the Bible exists. There are also successful predictions of the Bible, which point to the fact that the Bible is not merely a work of man.

you want me to know you are real then I need something to go on besides a 2000 year old book that does not support logic.

Does not support logic? What do you mean?

We don’t punish anyone for thoughts. That is the BIG difference. Mankind don’t hold thoughts against anyone. That is absurd.

Of course we don't, because that would be stepping outside our bounds as humans. But God is a different story. He created us, and has rightful authority over us, and ss I pointed out earlier, it would be strange as the Moral Authority of the universe for Him not to hold us accountable for our thoughts.

"Whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles in one point, he is guilty of all."

Again absurd d. If your god is going to find me guilty of all sins if I only break one then he is a tyrant.

I do not deny the principle that there are degrees of punishment based on your specific violations of God's law. Obviously God wouldn't punish you as a murderer, adulterer, and thief if all you were was a thief. The point is, whether a person has broken one or twenty laws, he is still considered a lawbreaker and will be held accountable for it. I agree, God would be a tyrant if He punished you for sins you've never even done! That's not what I was trying to say, however.

God doesn't grade on a curve, because if He did, He would not really be just and good. God must have a consistent standard for all people and all time.

But in another post you say that god told one man not to greave for the death of his wife but don’t’ hold all men up to the same standard. Stop talking out of both sides of your face.

Consider for instance a mother who tells her son to wash the dishes every Tuesday night. Now does that command automatically apply to every child in the family? Of course not, it was given to a specific person. Nor would you come back and say, "The mother's rules are inconsistent, because she doesn't expect every child to wash the dishes every Tuesday night!" That's ridiculous, because the responsibility was given only to the one son.

This is how it often works with God. He gives specific commands to specific people in specific situations, but they do not all necessarily apply to everyone. There certainly are some commands that are universal (the moral commands, such as "do not murder," "love your neighbor," "do not commit adultery") but not all commands are that way.

When I said "God doesn't grade on a curve" I meant that God doesn't acquit certain people based on how good they are relative to others. He doesn't say, "Necroshine is more moral than Bill Clinton, so I'll let him in heaven." He expects everyone to do the right thing at all times.

Certainly a person who does more bad things than another person will be punished more, but they are still both considered "guilty." One is not acquitted simply because he has done "less bad" than the other person. That's all I was saying.

Since God loves mankind, He didn't want to simply give us justice. So He found a way to give us mercy without violating His standard of morality:

What hell? how is it just to send me to hell for thinking about having sex with someone I don’t know?

Again, I think it's fairly clear that a God who doesn't hold us accountable for what we choose to think about is a morally compromising God. Our thoughts reflect our attitude and heart. To repeat my illustration, if someone filled his mind with thoughts of bitterness and hate towards someone, that person is clearly in sin even if he hasn't actually hurt the person. The same goes for sexual sin: even if you don't actually commit the act, if you entertain the desire and fantasize about it, it is sin and liable to punishment.

How is it just to send someone to hell that don’t worship god when he had never heard of god?

Because as I said, if God exists in an objective sense, then God has made Himself known at some level to every human from every culture. In other words, someone's knowledge of God isn't dependent on when a religion enters a society. Scripture talks about this:

"Men...suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:18-20).

In other words, no one is truly ignorant about God's existence and moral nature, because God made it that way. If someone who has never heard of God through a religion responds to the knowledge God has given him, God will reveal more truth to him, eventually enough to lead him to salvation if he is willing. But if the person suppresses the truth about God, then that person has rejected God and is therefore guilty, even though he never heard of Jesus specifically.

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

Yaaa! Big deal. He is a god and by definition he can not die. He came from heaven just to go back to heaven. I fail to see how he accomplished anything. If god wanted to forgive us then he would just do so.

No, because that would have compromised his standard of righteousness. He needs a basis on which to forgive us of our sins, someone needed to "pay" for the offenses that were committed against Him. As the Bible explains:

"Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness...that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:24-26).

Unless you repent you will all likewise perish"

I would rather be in hell then in a heaven that has child molesters in it.

Ha? Since when does the Bible say that "child molesters" will go to heaven? The Bible actually says the exact opposite:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Not only are child molesters habitual "fornicators," which would be enough to exclude them from heaven, but they are also hurting innocent children! If anything, these guys will be in the hottest section of hell, certainly not heaven.

He who believes in him [the Son] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

That would mean all the jews, gods chosen people will go to hell. absurd

You don't receive an automatic ticket to heaven just because you're born to a Jewish family. The Jews have special priveleges from God, but it is still possible for a Jew to reject God. So yes, the Jews that reject God (rejecting Christ is the same as rejecting God) will go to hell, just like the non-Jews who reject God. But this is no surprise at all - if you read the Old Testament (the Jewish scriptures), God declares time and time again that the Jews are rebellious and will be judged. This is nothing new!

God...will render to each one according to his deeds...[One] day God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ

I thought you said if you break one rule you break all of them? Then why judge us by our deeds?

As I pointed out above, I never meant that you would be punished for breaking every law in the book for only breaking one law. I meant that you are considered a lawbreaker whether you break one law or ten laws. But obviously you will be judged according to your deeds, meaning that not everyone will receive the same level of punishment.

[necroshine]

if there is a God

Which one out of 6000? The whole concept of holding on to one out of 6000 is retarded. If the other 5999 is not correct what is the odds that 1 is correct?

I think you are trying to point out that according to Christian teaching everyone is born in sin ("original sin"). That is correct, but then the issue is, what will you do once you discover that you are a sinner?

I’m a sinner at birth so I’m going to sin. And I’m going to sin some more. That is all I can do according to your god. What happens when a bird finds out that it is a bird. It goes on being a bird. It is not wrong to be what you are. except I’m not a sinner. I don’t recognize your god. He has no control over me. And I’m not about to try to please the tyrant you call a god. I’m NOT a sinner. You can be one if you want. I’m not going to think that lowly of myself. If I’m a sinner from birth then there is nothing wrong with that. god can kiss my ass.

Will you repent and return to God

nlm god can take my place in hell for all I care.

How can you say that? Certainly thoughts alone can be evil. For instance, if I hated someone and fantasized about killing the person, that would obviously be evil, even if I never actually commit the act. God would be strange indeed if He only cared about actions and words, but not thoughts.

Suppose someone goes through his whole life hating people, thinking about murder, and fantasizing about sexually immoral acts, but never actually does anything. He then dies and stands before God on Judgment Day, and God says, "You've done nothing wrong, come on in to heaven." That would be ridiculous.

Your stupid. If someone has never did anything to be guilty of then why punish him? Just because you think some thing doesn’t mean that you did it. For crying out loud I do at times think that I would love to kill someone. The president being one of them. That doesn’t mean you should put me to death for it. That is stupid. That is ridiculous. That is so obnoxious that I hope you don’t mean it. What kind of justice is it when you hold someone’s thoughts against them? Again I will say god is a tyrant if that is his way of doing things.

God has left enough evidence of design in the universe to point to the fact that He exists

Show me ONE design in the universe that says god is real.
THERE ARE NONE. No one has ever found even the slightest piece of evidence of your god.

Does not support logic? What do you mean?

Everything I have been saying. Plus everything from the first page of the bible to the last. The book does not support logic. From a flat earth to punishing someone that touches a mountain, to punishing someone forever in a hell that was brought up on a different religion and never heard of your god. To needing blood to forgive us for what he says he don’t like. For crying out loud just forgive us. No logic anywhere.

Of course we don't, because that would be stepping outside our bounds as humans. But God is a different story. He created us, and has rightful authority over us, and ss I pointed out earlier, it would be strange as the Moral Authority of the universe for Him not to hold us accountable for our thoughts.

Stupid, Retarded, obnoxious, absurd, just wrong. Your god is a tyrant. nlm

[dan]

necroshine said:

if there is a God

Which one out of 6000? The whole concept of holding on to one out of 6000 is retarded. If the other 5999 is not correct what is the odds that 1 is correct?

That's irrelevant. The real issue is, does the evidence support Christianity or not? If it does, then you follow Christianity, regardless of what other ideas are out there.

There is something worth mentioning, however. C.S. Lewis writes:

"If you are Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one big mistake. If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all these religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth. When I was an atheist I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always been wrong about the question that mattered to them most; when I became a Christian I could take a more liberal view" (Mere Christianity, Book II, Chpt. 1).

In other words, Christianity is not nearly as narrow as atheism is!

I’m a sinner at birth so I’m going to sin. And I’m going to sin some more. That is all I can do according to your god.

According to my God, once you recognize that you are a sinner, you can repent and begin living a new life in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). In fact, repentance and faith in Christ is essential, because failure to do so results in being punished for your sins!

How can you say that? Certainly thoughts alone can be evil. For instance, if I hated someone and fantasized about killing the person, that would obviously be evil, even if I never actually commit the act. God would be strange indeed if He only cared about actions and words, but not thoughts.

Suppose someone goes through his whole life hating people, thinking about murder, and fantasizing about sexually immoral acts, but never actually does anything. He then dies and stands before God on Judgment Day, and God says, "You've done nothing wrong, come on in to heaven." That would be ridiculous.

Your stupid. If someone has never did anything to be guilty of then why punish him? Just because you think some thing doesn’t mean that you did it.

What you choose to let your mind dwell on reflects your attitude and your heart. Even though you may not act out a sin, the fact that you want to do it and are acting it out in your mind is sinful. Fantasizing about murder or some other evil act is clearly evil in and of itself, because your heart is committing the act.

Show me ONE design in the universe that says god is real.

The origin of life is one HUGE evidence for design. It contains an enormous amount of information ("specified complexity"), enough to fill all 30 volumes of the Encyclopedia Brittanica three or four times over, as atheist Richard Dawkins admit. (Obviously the first cell is not as complex as human life, but it doesn't really change things significantly). Dawkins even admits that "the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker."

Dr. Jonathan Sarfati lists a few incredible examples of design in nature (see www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re1/chapter9.asp):

The genetic information in the DNA cannot be translated except with many different enzymes, which are themselves encoded. So the code cannot be translated except via products of translation, a vicious circle that ties evolutionary origin-of-life theories in knots. These include double-sieve enzymes to make sure the right amino acid is linked to the right tRNA. One sieve rejects amino acids too large, while the other rejects those too small.25

The genetic code that’s almost universal to life on earth is about the best possible, for protecting against errors.26

The genetic code also has vital editing machinery that is itself encoded in the DNA. This shows that the system was fully functional from the beginning—another vicious circle for evolutionists.

Yet another vicious circle, and there are many more, is that the enzymes that make the amino acid histidine themselves contain histidine.

Lobster eyes are unique in being modeled on a perfect square with precise geometrical relationships of the units. NASA X-ray telescopes copied this design.

THERE ARE NONE. No one has ever found even the slightest piece of evidence of your god.

See above!

Does not support logic? What do you mean?

Everything I have been saying.

Hopefully everything I have been saying helps to show that the Bible is not illogical!

The book does not support logic. From a flat earth to punishing someone that touches a mountain,

Where does the Bible say that the earth is flat? I know of one passage that talks about the shape of the earth, and it indicates that the earth is round in some way:

"He who sits above the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22).

Regarding punishing someone for "touching a mountain," I addressed this in another thread.

to punishing someone forever in a hell that was brought up on a different religion and never heard of your god.

If God exists in an objective sense, then God could make Himself known at some level to every human from every culture. In other words, someone's knowledge of God isn't dependent on when a religion enters a society. Scripture talks about this:

"Men...suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:18-20).

In other words, no one is truly ignorant about God's existence and His moral nature, because God designed the universe that way. If someone who has never heard of God through a religion responds to the knowledge God has given him, God will reveal more truth to that person, eventually enough to lead him to salvation if he is willing. But if the person suppresses the truth about God, then that person has rejected God and is therefore guilty, even though he never really heard of Jesus.

Also it must be noted that people who know more about God are held to a higher standard by God than people who have never heard of Him.

To needing blood to forgive us for what he says he don’t like. For crying out loud just forgive us.

No, because that would have compromised his standard of righteousness. He needs a basis on which to forgive us of our sins, someone needed to "pay" for the offenses that were committed against Him. As the Bible explains:

"Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness...that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:24-26).

[guerrillasaint]

I don’t know what happens when you die and you have no clue either. You have never died yet so you don’t know. What did you do before you were born? The question is just as crazy as being concerned about doing something after you die. When you die game over.

Also since you haven't been dead how can't you say that the game is over? ?By what said you don't know anymore than we do of what happens after death? So why are you so certain it is gave over? The reason Dan and I have a better idea of what happens after death is we have a relationship with the one that has conquered death.

God is a tyrant.

You know Necro you like to use the statement that God is a tyrant but you have yet to show how God has oppressed you. Therefore you have no way of backing up your statement.

Show me ONE design in the universe that says god is real.
THERE ARE NONE. No one has ever found even the slightest piece of evidence of your god.

Also since no scientists has given a good reason for this universe to exist then you couldn't possibly rule out that God had in fact created the entire thing. Just look at every living thing. Nature this is more than an coincidence. Life didn't stumble into existence. There is more to this world than what you can see and feel.

Which one out of 6000? The whole concept of holding on to one out of 6000 is retarded. If the other 5999 is not correct what is the odds that 1 is correct?

The idea isn't retarded if you talk to that 1 out of 6000 everyday. Why do you use odds to explain away God? And why would these odd make God not exist.

We don’t punish anyone for thoughts. That is the BIG difference. Mankind don’t hold thoughts against anyone. That is absurd.

If you are thinking then you are doing something. Also the more you rehearse something in your mind the closer you get to actually acting out your thoughts.