244 Killed In Hajj Stampede

[Hilly]

From the CBC:
"At least 244 people were killed in a stampede during a stoning ritual at the annual Muslim Hajj pilgrimage, Saudi Arabia's Hajj Minister Iyad Madani said Sunday."

This is a sad story for sure but it reminds me of when lightning strikes a church. Where was Allah?
Find story here: www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/02/01/hajj_stampede040201

[Yaw]

Very unfortunate.

Forget the "Where was Allah?" question, though. It's not that interesting when you read the whole article.

Last year, 14 pilgrims were trampled during the stoning and 35 were killed in 2001.

Also on the sidebar, you can see that most of the Hajj tragedies over the years have been as a result of stampedes during the stoning ritual. That makes these continuing tragedies ridiculous. There's more than ample precedent that some kind of change is required to have a safer ritual. Why is the Saudi Arabian government acting to secure the area against terrorism (which is pretty unlikely) and not to make it safer for a circumstance they know occurs on a regular basis?

This is one of the most important events in Islam. Muslims are expected, as a religious duty of prime importance, to make the journey to Hajj in their lifetime. What does it mean when the hosts of such an important ceremony (who are themselves Muslim) can't be bothered to adequately look after the safety of their guests?

[Hilly]

Yaw you make some good points, but I don`t think we can just forget the root cause of this tragedy and thats religion. Thats what brings all these people together in one spot. Two million I believe.
I don`t have any answer to the religion aspect, but when I read comments such as this by Iyad Madani, Saudia Arabias`s Hajj Minister, "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate," I mean shit this is the guy in charge?

[AuntieSocial]

Comments, such as the one Hilly posted, lead me to wonder if precautions are actually being made. Afterall, what a better way to go than a preordained fate at a religiously important event?

[tamara]

The root cause religion? Blarmey.
Accidents happen!

When huge crowds of humans gather, some types of accidents are more likely. That's all.

Are you saying it's ok to gather and take the risks it entails in the name of soccer, say, but not in the name of allah?

[Hilly]

tamara said:

The root cause religion? Blarmey.
Accidents happen!
When huge crowds of humans gather, some types of accidents are more likely. That's all.
Are you saying it's ok to gather and take the risks it entails in the name of soccer, say, but not in the name of allah?

I ask myself, what brought this crowd together and to me the obvious answer is religion. No religion, no crowd. This is not simply a matter of a large crowd. Muslims are required according to the Qur'an to attend the Hajj as set forth in the Five Pillars of Islam. Not only does religion bring this crowd together but it also stirs many into an emotional state. Rituals requiring the crowd to move enmasse, especially dangerous is the symbolic stoning of satan, which has been shown to be the most dangerous part of the Hajj.
Theres a lot more invlolved here than what we may find at a soccer game with some over zealous fans.
I am not saying that Muslims should not have a right to attend the Hajj. They should. If they wish to take the risks involved thats their decision, but to say that religion does not play a role in these deaths I believe is wrong.

[Yaw]

I'm with tamara on this one.

By way on analogy, on May 1, 2001 there was a soccer game held in Accra, Ghana between Accra Hearts of Oak and Kumasi Asante Kotoko -- two of the best clubs in the country, with the biggest fan bases. We're talking the equivalent of the Yankees facing the Red Sox here. A few of the fans got rowdy near the end of the game because of an official's call, and threw some chairs. The police at the game responded with tear gas, triggering a stampede. Unfortunately, the gates of the stadium were locked to prevent people from coming in late without paying, so those fleeing the tear gas had nowhere to go. Many died in the stampede (I don't recall exact numbers).

According to Hilly's argument, significant blame is to be attached to the soccer game for bringing everyone together, as opposed to the poor crowd control, bad decisions on the part of stadium staff, or the instigators. I don't buy that argument. In both cases, there was criminal negligence involved on the part of those responsible for security. Yes, Hajj can be an emotional experience, but that's all the more reason for devising security and organizational measures that are capable of providing safety for large crowds. Fortunately, the Saudi Arabian government is now seriously looking into this...or so they say.

The comments by Iyad Madani are a way of passing off the blame for the tragedy onto Allah. The fact that improvements to security are now on the table shows that he is lying in claiming that all precautions were taken to prevent a stampede, and that his ministry was negligent in its preparations. I hope that people see through this ploy for the insulting spectacle that it is.

I sincerely hope that crowd control techniques are improved adequately for next year. I also hope that this is done in an appropriate manner. That is to say, one of the proposals involved limiting crowds allowed to come to Mecca through the use of quotas per country. While I do understand that smaller crowds are easier to control (and it would solve a lot of problems), the Saudi government would be best to realize that since Islam requires every Muslim to come to Hajj in his/her lifetime if he/she is able, and since there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world, large crowds are unavoidable. I think Muslims would have problems accepting that they would be lucky to fulfill their religious obligations within the next 500 or so years (assuming 2 million remains the cap and the population of Muslims does not increase significantly). I don't envy the balance the government will have to reach between safety and respect for the world Muslim community's religious requirements.

[tamara]

Hilly, think. If people got stampeded to death at 4th of July celebrations would the Declaration of Independence be blamed for it, in your world?

[Hilly]

tamara said:

Hilly, think. If people got stampeded to death at 4th of July celebrations would the Declaration of Independence be blamed for it, in your world?

In my world? Your the one offering up fictitious analogys.
I stand by my post.

[tamara]

I was offering you a thought experiment.

There is nothing fictitious about people stampeded to death in sports stadiums, or theaters, or concert arenas, and other places where large number of humans gather. If you are not willing to say that soccer or rock music or theatrical productions etc are to blame for those deaths, then why blame religion for the one in Mecca? Just because you feel like it?

[Hilly]

Tamara, although I will be dating myself, I dare say I am well aware of the dangers of a stampede when large crowds gather. I attended a WHO concert in Buffalo in 1979 the night after 11 concert goers were trampled to death in Cincinnati.
The cause of the deaths was said to be due to festival seating, which is where the seats sold are not pre-assigned. When the doors were opened the crowd rushed in to get the best seats resulting in this disaster.
Since then, this type of seating is rarely used, among other precautions to avoid a repeat of this tragedy.
However I see distinct differences between this rock concert and what has been happening at Mecca. I thought I had made this clear in my post above.
First and foremost attendence at the Hajj is mandatory (albeit if one is able)
Secondly participants are encouraged to perform rituals that have been shown to be dangerous in previous years. These are stipulations based on religious tradition.
As Yaw has stated there has been talk of addressing these safety issues. I hope that is the case and there are no further deaths. Please note I am not and never was placing all the blame on religion. The words I used were "root cause" and "plays a role"
I just don`t think religion can just wash its hands of the whole problem.

[Hilly]

From Central Mosque.com
(Emphasis mine)
"If possible, one should endeavour to pelt the jamarah in the masnoon or at least the mubaah time. However, experience shows that in the day and age when millions of people come to perform Hajj, it is very difficult to fulfil this obligation in its masnoon time without causing harm to one's self and other Muslims. In fact, sometimes one has to put his health and life in danger. Therefore, it is advised that ramee is done before Maghrib in mubaah time. If one that finds that the crowd of people is very large at this time too, then the women and sick can wait safely on one side whilst the men and healthy complete their obligation and then the women and sick can do their ramee after Mahhrib, 'Eeshaa or whenever convenient before sub'h saadiq. Many men in their zeal to follow the masnoon time take with them women, weak and disabled and face great difficulty."