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Post by droskey on Oct 21, 2004 19:13:27 GMT -5
EvenThen
Bush also happens to be one of the most secretive presidents to date. If we are in the dark about "80%" of what goes on, it is largely the Bush administration that is keeping us that way. However, I'm talking about the 20% that I do know about the candidates. I'm not willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt when he fails that 20%.
Also, I'm not quite prepared to state that the media is left wing liberal. It can be easily argued that they should have been much more critical of Bush right after 9/11 right up to going into Iraq. That's not to say that the media doesn't lean left a bit, I think that it does. But it isn't that left leaning.
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Oct 22, 2004 11:43:01 GMT -5
Grip of power? What sort of underhanded comment is that? If there something you'd like to say? I find it rather humorous that when you don't have anything intellegient to say, you resort to backhanded comments that serve rather to infuriate than to encourage consideration. Whatever. I respect George Bush and trust him in defending our country. John Kerry can't defend America, much less his own opinions, which he can't seem to keep track of. .... Whats backhanded about my comment? He's in your pocket and your using your votes to try to make sure it stays that way. You are ruining your country with your fundamentalist beliefs.e.g. wanting creationisim taught in schools or wanting to stop a womans right to abortion...oh and wanting to stop stem cell research. Kerry is the best choice for all American people and not just the white, married, middle class, bible bashing, gay hating,christian fundamentalists.I find it humorous when instead of arguing about Kerrys policies you call him a flip flop man.I find it humorous when you spit your dummy out because some people don't like Bush...but hey ...don't worry be happy. |
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Oct 22, 2004 11:59:02 GMT -5
I think we also need to take into account that we are not privy to 80% of the information the president got/gets. We don't hear everything, and what we do is skewed by our biased left wing media. Is that an official figure.  Look Bush lied to all of us.His agenda was a regime change,he also wanted to be able to have US bases in the area to guarantee oil supplies(i hear you are going to have 7 bases in the new Iraq) All this inforomation from the Fox network(right wing ) Oh by the way, I am glad your hear because it's good to squabble |
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Post by droskey on Oct 22, 2004 12:10:49 GMT -5
Theo
Theo, I'm sure that Bush isn't in EvenThen's back pocket. I'm assuming that you mean the Religious Right. I can agree with you on that. But I don't think that EvenThen fits squarely in that constituency.
Theo
It would be nice if it was this easy. America's problems are far worse than having a few radicals with fundamentalist beliefs. I think that the problems with Bush are a far worse than the fact that he is very religious. He is overly headstrong and perpetually reckless. He also doesn't seem to be a very thoughtful person, which lends to the air that he is an idiot. I don't believe that he's an idiot, but I don't think that he is as reflective as he should be. Those are his cheif flaws, I believe.
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Oct 22, 2004 12:31:22 GMT -5
TheoTheo, I'm sure that Bush isn't in EvenThen's back pocket. I'm assuming that you mean the Religious Right. I can agree with you on that. But I don't think that EvenThen fits squarely in that constituency. TheoIt would be nice if it was this easy. America's problems are far worse than having a few radicals with fundamentalist beliefs. I think that the problems with Bush are a far worse than the fact that he is very religious. He is overly headstrong and perpetually reckless. He also doesn't seem to be a very thoughtful person, which lends to the air that he is an idiot. I don't believe that he's an idiot, but I don't think that he is as reflective as he should be. Those are his cheif flaws, I believe. I know my view of the USA cannot be as accurate as yours because you live there  So from my view 3,500 or so miles away. America seems to be obsessed with christianity, even on everyday TV shows they go on about god this god that..the last one was Everyone loves Raymond (on tv every morning..and it's very very funny)... Then we see the news from America and they talk about the election...and all you get supporting Bush are the christians with the god bless america attitude. As for Even Then...well of course I mean the Religious right and not Even Then when talking of the influencing of Bush.. As for ET being part of the religious right ..well he seems very right wing to me..(this could be because I am european) But the craziest thing to my mind is.......  I find that I actually like the George Bush image(he must have a great pr machine) ;D |
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 23, 2004 16:09:19 GMT -5
I am actually very right wing. But I would consider myself an open-minded conservative who is willing to listen and debate other people's views in a respectful and tasteful way. I am disgusted with the 90% of the conservative dumbasses (excuse my language, but there is simply no other way to put it) that make us all look like judgemental, narrow minded individuals.
I may be considered an extremist from a European point of view, though.
Oh, by the way, 80% isn't an actual figure, I exaggerated a little. But it is ignorant to think that we hear of everything that goes on inside the White House.
You have no right to tell me that I'm ruining my country. You don't even live in it. Besides, without "my country", you'd be speaking German.
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Oct 24, 2004 7:30:24 GMT -5
I am actually very right wing. But I would consider myself an open-minded conservative who is willing to listen and debate other people's views in a respectful and tasteful way. I am disgusted with the 90% of the conservative dumbasses (excuse my language, but there is simply no other way to put it) that make us all look like judgemental, narrow minded individuals. I may be considered an extremist from a European point of view, though. Oh, by the way, 80% isn't an actual figure, I exaggerated a little. But it is ignorant to think that we hear of everything that goes on inside the White House. You have no right to tell me that I'm ruining my country. You don't even live in it. Besides, without "my country", you'd be speaking German. Oi. ;D.Even Then.....I might also be speaking Russian.. Don't missunderstand me. I think that we British owe a great debt to the American and Canadian nations. Both countries gave thousands of their young mens lives, to stop the Germans and then the Soviets from taking over europe.You helped us with food convoys in the 2nd world war,help revive the european economies after the war.You helped Britain with information in the war with Argentina in the 80's. But...I cannot understand the R.R. wanting to stop the rest of your society from developing cures for things by innovative research. If you don't do stem research for example, other countries (China,Japan etc)will and the USA will pay a price (jobs e.t.c.)for stopping the march of science. |
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Post by AuntieSocial on Oct 24, 2004 9:24:17 GMT -5
I'm curious, EvenThen, what has Bush done for the country?
[/li][li]What's his domestic record on the economy? and jobs?
[/li][li]How's his "No child left behind" initiative faring?
[/li][li]How many soldiers have died under his watch?
[/li][li]How many U.S. civilians have died under his watch?
[/li][li]What did he do to PREVENT 9/11 (he had previous knowledge)?
[/li][li]What did he do in the crucial hours after the attack?
[/li][li]How many innocent civilians of other nations have died due to his decisions?
[/li][li]How does the U.S. stand in the opinion of the rest of the world (and this is an important factor if the U.S. is going to continue to have international support, both through trade arrangements and militarily)?
[/li][li]How many lies did he tell the U.S. citizens and the world to garner support of the illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation? WMD? Liberation of Iraqis? Links to terrorism? All lies. No Weapons were found. The only Iraqis that were liberated are those that are now dead (the dead can't feel oppressed. The rest are now under occupation of a foreign coalition). The 9/11 commission showed there was no link between Bin Laden & Houssein.
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Post by BangoSkank19 on Oct 24, 2004 10:02:18 GMT -5
Yes, yes, to Auntie, you listen!
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Post by Theodore Doxford on Oct 24, 2004 10:18:19 GMT -5
But at least Sadam is no longer able to mass murder the Kurds...
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Post by EvenThen on Oct 25, 2004 13:01:59 GMT -5
Dear AuntieSocial:
As in regards to the war: people die. That is a fact. It is ignorant to think that people won't die during a war. War is not pretty. I am in no way saying that it is. I understand that our men and women have died defending freedom. So far, Bush has kept the war (or most of it) overseas. I'll like to see it stay that way.
I refuse to believe that the president had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks that took hundreds of lives and did not act on it. I absolutely refuse to believe that.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 25, 2004 13:31:47 GMT -5
That's a dangerous attitude to take. Many times I have seen such words turn out to be misguided. "I refuse to believe ...". Do presuppose the answer. Review the evidence.
It is fine to say "I don't believe that ...", but watch for those times when you feel like saying "I refuse to believe that ...".
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Post by droskey on Oct 25, 2004 13:37:36 GMT -5
EvenThen
Nobody is disputing this fact, EvenThen. The point that is in contention is whether the US should have gone into Iraq in the first place. My opinion on that is, no, we shouldn't have. We should have let inspections proceed because they were working. Barring that, we should have spent much more time trying to convince the world community that stricter measures were needed. Barring that we should have had a better plan on how to get in and get out of Iraq. I.e. an exit strategy should have been developed. NONE of these things took place. Also, the reasons that were originally cited for going in turned out to be completely misguided. There were not WMDs and no clear link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists.
Going into Iraq at this time was an extremely expensive and unnecessary move.
I also don't hold the opinion that Bush new about the 9/11 attacks before they happened. I also don't know that he could have done much to prevent them under the circumstances. However, I am very suspicious about the motivations of his administration after 9/11.
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