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Post by EvenThen on Oct 29, 2004 18:39:10 GMT -5
Here's my beef with evolution...
I find it very hard to believe that we came from some prehistoric pool of slime. Furthermore, I also do not believe that- us being complex and intricate human beings- that it happened all by chance. How could the world around us, and the order and balance in the universe, happen by chance? Or by comets or meteorites colliding?
Here's an example: the atmosphere exerts a certain amount of pressure on our bodies, but is counter-acted by our internal pressure. If both the atmospheric pressure and our internal body pressue were slighty less or more than it is, we would explode or implode. That is just one example out of many that would lead me to believe that it is downright hilarious to believe that we were created out of a slim margin of chance from a puddle of goop.
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Post by pieisgood on Oct 30, 2004 11:40:27 GMT -5
Here's my beef with evolution... I find it very hard to believe that we came from some prehistoric pool of slime. Do you think there's something illogical about evolution, or is it just counter-intuitive? Furthermore, I also do not believe that- us being complex and intricate human beings- that it happened all by chance. How could the world around us, and the order and balance in the universe, happen by chance? Or by comets or meteorites colliding? I decide to go out and buy a lottery ticket. I know that it's insanely unlikely for me to win, but, by a twist of fate, I do. I reason the same was as you do here: Since something unlikely came out in our favor, somebody must have intervened. Therefore, the lottery was rigged. But this isn't necissarily the case; or every lottery would have to be rigged. So, the reasoning can't be true. Here's an example: the atmosphere exerts a certain amount of pressure on our bodies, but is counter-acted by our internal pressure. If both the atmospheric pressure and our internal body pressue were slighty less or more than it is, we would explode or implode. That is just one example out of many that would lead me to believe that it is downright hilarious to believe that we were created out of a slim margin of chance from a puddle of goop. Although this pertains to what I said above, there's something else to be adressed. Here, you are making a case for evolution as well as God. We start as, say, a single cell. As we evolve, any branches of the evolution that don't fit the requirements already put in place by the earth will die off. So, the only groups remaining are the ones which fit the criteria. There's no room for anything outside that, or Pop goes the weasel. Also, why do you find it so ridiculous that we came from nothing, but it's perfectly okay that God came from nothing as well?
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Epton
Maverick's Chew Toy
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Post by Epton on Oct 30, 2004 16:31:13 GMT -5
My Problem.
is that its being Taught in State Schools as proven fact, when in fact it is not, and seeing as most of its leading proponents testify to this fact, it is my opinion that like in the public schools (or called private in the states i belive) it should be taught not as cannon, but as theory. because thats what it boils down to, theory. unprovable theory.
The idea of Uniformitarianism or the idea of Catastrophism both present very excellent arguments. but they are both theorys to that point.
now in my opinion evdience leans towards catastrophism.
The musem of British History is the primary source in the theory of Evolution and Uniformitarianism. i have been there, and have been awed by the mass amounts of information regarding these theorys. but have never seen any desisive evidence that proves these theorys.
i shall finish with this quote by Dr. Colin Patterson, a keynote speaker and at one time, (may still be) the leading paleontologist at the Natural History Museum. he posed a question to his collegues. very learned men in Both American and British Science feilds. i now pose it to you.
"Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing, any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, 'I do know one thing - it ought not to be taught in high school.''
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Post by Superhappyjen on Oct 30, 2004 18:28:08 GMT -5
Here's my beef with evolution... I find it very hard to believe that we came from some prehistoric pool of slime. Furthermore, I also do not believe that- us being complex and intricate human beings- that it happened all by chance. How could the world around us, and the order and balance in the universe, happen by chance? Or by comets or meteorites colliding? Just because you feel uncomfortable with the thought that we are here by random chance, doesn't make it any less true. Couldn't everything that didn't have the right amount of pressure have imploded or exploded and that's why it isn't here? I find evolution to be a perfectly plausible theory. I'm not completely convinced beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, but it seems plausible to me. I'd say a billion times more plausible than the theory that a supreme being decided one day to create a universe and breathed us into existence. Even if evolution wasn't true, that's hardly proof of God. My beef about evolution is that Christians are constantly coming up with reasons why evolution is a ridiculous theory and using that as evidence of God's existence. These are two seperate issues!
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Post by Hilly on Oct 30, 2004 23:23:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure how serious you are about this topic, but I think I can point you to a site where evolution is specialized. Proceed with an open mind. www.evolutionpages.com/
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kronus
Maverick's Chew Toy
A closet atheist. looking for communication with fellow freethinkers.
Posts: 19
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Post by kronus on Oct 31, 2004 14:26:31 GMT -5
Being an atheist, I beleive in evolition. But all the peices have not been put together. Evolition is much more complex than the definition describes. Theists make a default to god because all things are not understood. You don't toss everything out the window because somethings are left to be discovered and beleive in something you understand even less. Evoliton is a theory and should be taught as one.
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Post by droskey on Nov 1, 2004 11:37:38 GMT -5
EvenThen You pose an excellent question,EvenThen, and the answer lies in the fact that the theory of evolution does not rest on random chance solely. There are random and non-random components to the theory. The randomness comes from genetic drift and mutation. The non-random component is natural selection. To use your example, organisms, that are not able to withstand ambient pressures do not survive to reproduce.
Epton I hear this mantra all the time, but evidence is never presented to support it. How, exactly, is evolution taught differently than any of the other sciences? You say that it is taught as fact not theory. How is it taught in this way? What methods are in common practice to put more weight behind evolution than any other scientific theory? If that is your only problem with evolution, then we need to clear up this point.
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Post by vertigo on Nov 1, 2004 13:09:33 GMT -5
Allow me to interject a question here. How did organisms evolve to the point of being able to reproduce?
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Nov 1, 2004 16:32:48 GMT -5
My Problem. is that its being Taught in State Schools as proven fact, when in fact it is not, and seeing as most of its leading proponents testify to this fact, it is my opinion that like in the public schools (or called private in the states i belive) it should be taught not as cannon, but as theory. because thats what it boils down to, theory. Then your problem is with unqualified teachers. Unqualified science teachers to be specific. Properly taught, it is an agendaless idea beckoning further observation to improve or radically correct it.
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Nov 1, 2004 17:02:11 GMT -5
Furthermore, I also do not believe that- us being complex and intricate human beings- that it happened all by chance. I would agree with your first point that our existence is nearly beyond comprehension; God or not. Big numbers and probability are not at all intuitive. I am over the sophistication of humans though. We're just currently number one. Check back in a few million years!!
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Epton
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 8
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Post by Epton on Nov 1, 2004 19:47:57 GMT -5
hmmm, a mantra eh?
The Evidence is obvious.
For Gods Sake (no pun intended) it is taught as the main science course in Schools. it is taught with the teacher, school and state backing, it is taught almost as if it were a religion. there is no contesting this statment, it is what it is. there is no way that anyone could say otherwise. flame on if you must, but i believe my "mantra" is indesputable. its there, and its very evident.
as to the "poor teacher response", thats not what i meant by "Evolutions leading proponents" i was refering to the Leaders of the scientific community.
Ladies and Gents, you cannot beyond a shadow of a doubt prove evolution, nor can you beyond a shadow of a doubt prove there was no flood. Uniformitarianism and Catastrophism Fight Neck and neck. and make for great discussions. i just abhor the censorship that forces Catastrophism out of the Picture.
Hilly, thank you for the link, i found it very interesting. but it still reinforces my point that you cannot Prove it. nor can you truley prove catastrophism.
i am also still awating to the response of my question. and the question of Doctor Patterson. (it only serves to reinforce my point that it still resides in the realm of theoretics.)
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kronus
Maverick's Chew Toy
A closet atheist. looking for communication with fellow freethinkers.
Posts: 19
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Post by kronus on Nov 1, 2004 22:32:44 GMT -5
Vertigo, you ask a good question. I do not beleive we know the answer. The present theory of evolition comes up short. I beleive that the forces that formed life on this planet are still at work today and are very active. The answer is not in the past but in the present. Life is not luck or an accident. It is a result of many forces and properties of the universe most of which we do not as of yet know about. Their are theorys and we may yet figure it out if we don't kill ourselves first.
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Post by Hilly on Nov 1, 2004 22:42:17 GMT -5
Hilly, thank you for the link, i found it very interesting. but it still reinforces my point that you cannot Prove it. Your Welcome. I've found much of this evolution science can get quite technical , certainly beyond my scope. From what I've been able to grasp I'm of the opinion that evolution is indeed a fact, but there seems to be much yet to be understood. I found another site which seems to sum things up in laymans terms quite nicely. Actually the whole site- Talk Origins is excellent. www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
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Post by solidsquid on Nov 2, 2004 2:52:48 GMT -5
Vertigo, you ask a good question. I do not beleive we know the answer. The present theory of evolition comes up short. I beleive that the forces that formed life on this planet are still at work today and are very active. That's abiogenesis, not evolution. You seem to not understand the how's and why's but attack the theory anyway...this is sad. Also, your use of the word theory is in the popular culture vein and not the scientific one, there is a difference.
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Post by solidsquid on Nov 2, 2004 2:56:44 GMT -5
First off, I'll start with some websites that can give excellent information regarding evolution. Evolution by Natural Selection by Derrick FarnellHow Evolution WorksThe incredibly thorough Talk Origins siteFull text of Darwin's "Origin of Species"Science and Creationsim: A View From the National Academy of Sciences 2nd Ed.These sites should provide plenty of information to keep one busy for a long while. So what is Evolution ? From - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: EvolutionNow, there are many confusions right off the bat when people refer to evolutionary theory. There is a vast difference in the meaning of the work theory in the layman and scientific senses. The layman or popular culture definition of the word theory: This definition is not applicable in regards to a scientific theory. Which is described as: From Mark Isaak's Essay Five Major Misconceptions about EvolutionAlso read Laurence Moran's Evolution is a Fact and a TheoryThe making of a scientific theory as rests on the scientific method: From the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: scientific methodAlso, the theories, hypotheses, and experiments are all open to repeatability and peer review. This allows the scientific community or anyone else to evaluate the information and validate it themselves if they are so inclined. Scientific journals assist in the peer review process as well as repeatability by following the APA publication format of stating the experiment, the methods, discussion of findings and the conclusion reached by the researchers along with a synopsis called an abstract. REFERENCES:1) Darwin, C. (1979). Origin of Species New York: Random House. 2) Audesirk, T., Audesirk, G., & Byers, B. (2002). Biology: Life on earth (6th ed.). Upper Saddle River: Prentice Hall. 3) Alters, S. (2000). Biology: Understanding life (3rd ed.). Sudbury: Jones and Bartlett Publishers. 4) Trefil, J. & Hazen, R. (2004). The sciences: An inegrated approach Hoboken: John Wiley & Sons.
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