The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Oct 13, 2005 17:41:28 GMT -5
This is a very complex question in its simplicity. Is religion ever not selfish? I believe that it always is because every good deed, every time you go to church, everything you ever do in the name of religion is always ultimately for one purpose. The purpose is to ensure that your afterlife (whatever it may be) is guaranteed. Every good thing that is done in god's name is for the basic reason of earning theistic brownie points.
Thoughts?
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on Oct 13, 2005 18:01:33 GMT -5
The motives of religion are suspect at best. The alarming amount of money religion generates for itself (followers and, more likely, leaders), I find oddly non-religious. Pass the plate! There’s profit to be had! Unless of course you define religion as selfish greed (‘cause who needs to live forever when you can have it all and more RIGHT NOW!!). Damn televangelists, I need to stop watching that shit
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Post by vertigo on Oct 14, 2005 4:49:23 GMT -5
Religion gives purpose, but that purpose is something one can't check or test. One must do one's duty. That duty is defined by someone else.
They get around it by saying that the message comes from an inspired book, but it cannot be interpreted literally. Catholics go so far as to say the minister/priest has received a special power from God to forgive sin. It's this elevating of certain 'special' people above oneself, and relegating the responsibility for deciding what to do to them and then blindingly following what they say, which is so bad.
People say that these suicide bombers are perverting Islam. They aren't. The seeds are there. If one can see that Islam is the message of the Quran, which is left to certain special individuals to interpret, it is only a matter of time before someone interprets it is a bad way.
The error is not in the interpretation. The error is taking the responsibility of interpretation from each individual, and instilling it in a priest/minister/etc.
Have you ever noticed how, in church, the minister is on a raised platform, often dressed in stately garb, etc? Why do you think that is? He or she (although typically he of course) is raised above his or her congregation. It is not simply so that all may hear him or her. It is to reinforce the idea that this person preaching is special in some way, that he or she has more authority to interpret the message.
Religion is precisely this, the removal of an individual's responsibility to decide on their own what actions to take. All religions share this trait, which is why all religion is evil. One doesn't need to hear what is being said, one merely need notice that some authority figure is saying it.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 14, 2005 9:04:40 GMT -5
One could argue and be right that all actions done by a person in this world are done though ones own self interest. That said the point of religion, or the catholic "faith" as I understand it is to move past this point of self thought, and on to only thinking about the betterment of others. It is this numbing process that people mistake for the ever so elusive ascendance to a higher power.
Lets face it the catholic church owns the smallest country in the world and has more money than most people would know what to do with. Religion is a business and God is out to buy your soul. After all who you gonna trust a bum off the street standing in a puddle while wearing bloody rags and sipping on two dollar wine smelling like he has been resurrected, or are you going to listen to the egotistical priest ,on his nice little platform, in his nice robes, drinking out of a gold cup, and waiting to go play golf. In the end I agree with vertigo religion is a farce if you want to believe in something believe in your self first.
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The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Oct 14, 2005 15:04:48 GMT -5
One could argue and be right that all actions done by a person in this world are done though ones own self interest. That said the point of religion, or the catholic "faith" as I understand it is to move past this point of self thought, and on to only thinking about the betterment of others. It is this numbing process that people mistake for the ever so elusive ascendance to a higher power. The only point of all of this "betterment of others" is to buy your way into a good afterlife with a pile of "good" deeds. There is no such thing as a selfless act. That being said I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time I think that both sides have an argument, but one side has a better argument than the other.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 14, 2005 17:39:24 GMT -5
The trick is getting others to see this for the fact that it is.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 15, 2005 4:03:15 GMT -5
Well, to me, 'the priest/minister/church knows best' doesn't sound like a good argument at all. Is it even an argument? This is the entire problem with religion, that people go to church or some similar place to 'receive the truth'. The truth is not something they learn themselves, they need to go to church to acquire it.
There can be no excusing it. If there was any chance to convert theists, and I don't think there is, it would be to tell them this, that they should discover the truth for themselves. I don't think will listen, which is why I won't try.
However, what one can do when one hears things like how suicide bombers are perverting Islam is to remind them that the problem is inherent in religion. It is not a perversion of Islam, Islam (as well as any religion) is perverse.
At the very least we atheists should not fall for their ploys, thinking that there is some good side to religion. There isn't. This is the message I am trying to get across.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 15, 2005 16:57:20 GMT -5
Well vertigo your not wrong. There is no good side to religion as it is a delusion that people willingly put on themselves. I don't think you will find me disputing that. (At least not without playing devils advocate). However unlike you I have not given up on the potential for human reason. I'm sure that there is some way out there to get people to come to an understanding. As I have said before the trick is finding it. I'm not saying that I will be able to use it to help people. All I am saying is I am not willing to give up on the reasoning capacity of the human race simply because I have tried to help some people and it flew back in my face. "To make an omelet you have to break some eggs."
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Post by Superhappyjen on Oct 22, 2005 11:53:27 GMT -5
It's the people that are selfish, not the religion. Religion, like the a-bomb, is neutral. If noone pushes the button, the bomb just sits in a wearhouse somewhere. There are plenty of non-selfish God-fearing folk out there and plenty of greedy bible-thumpers.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 22, 2005 15:56:06 GMT -5
Wrong. Religion supports zealotry by definition. Religion defines an external morality, and given that, the proponents of that religion would naturally want to be zealous. If one believes that abortions are against God's prescription, naturally one would want to stop them. Reasoning like this leads to suicide attacks, abortion clinic bombings, etc. You can't separate religion from these things.
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Post by Superhappyjen on Oct 23, 2005 10:10:40 GMT -5
Reasoning like this leads to suicide attacks, abortion clinic bombings, etc. You can't separate religion from these things. Those who do these things would do them anyway because they are crazy. Without religion they would blame the voices in their heads, or video games.
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Post by vertigo on Oct 23, 2005 10:51:43 GMT -5
What about the anti-abortion fundies that won't allow morning-after pills because they are 'tantamount to abortion'? What about the ones who won't allow abortion for rape victims? Would you also call them crazy?
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Oct 23, 2005 17:13:27 GMT -5
Well vertigo I certianly would call these people crazy.
I think your wrong here vertigo. You see people can be over zealous. A thing like Religion cannot be over zealous. The second you say that something caused your actions and not your own mind is the second that you loose your reason and as most of us define humanity as the ability to reason you would lose that too. Whether or not Religion tells people to do things it is not religion that is to be blaimed for their actions. To use your example, If a person belives that abortion is wrong then with or without religion telling them they will fight against it. Such is human nature, simply takeing religion out of the equation will not change this. Now are you correct that religon is an obsurdity that is best avoided by rational thinking men? Of course you are. However is it religion that is to blame for the actions of the men? No it is not. The argument you make above has a critical flaw. If you have two people one who is an atheist and he hates something, and the other who is religous and he hates something. Which man is worse? Which man is better? This is the problem becuase neither man can be said to be better or worse. If I belive that abortion is wrong then it is natural that I would want to stop it. Do you see the problem?
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Post by vertigo on Oct 23, 2005 18:48:24 GMT -5
I am going to keep quiet now. I have said what I wanted to say, and so will wait for someone else to support my viewpoint. If no-one agrees with me, I'll only be wasting time pursuing it. I can only present logical arguments, I can't make them more logical.
Let me just say this. An external morality is bad. Religion supplies an external morality. Ipso facto, religion is bad. I can't make it clearer than this.
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Post by Hilly on Oct 24, 2005 8:59:27 GMT -5
But religion can be the cause, or say trigger or justification, for people becoming unreasonably over zealous. People that very well may have not acted out in a violent way had they not been exposed to religion. I believe religion is a cult, and cults are all about mind control. 9/11 comes to mind. Would these kooks have flown airliners into buildings if they had not been under a religious influence?
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