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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 10, 2003 21:28:30 GMT -5
A Frequent Mental Illness
By Madison Brown
About 92 percent of all Americans believe in some sort of conscious entity who watches over them, and can create other matter on the earth at his own whim. This principle is referred to as theism. I believe that people who have this idea can be considered mentally ill. Compared to depression, one of the most common mental illnesses in the U.S., theism occurs 63 percent more often. Theism is an infestation of the mind. In almost every known civilization ever formed on earth, some form of religion has been present. The first religions, formed when the human was much more ignorant, were explanations to questions that could not be answered with their intelligence and technology. For example, the idea that a god created all matter on earth was their explanation for the living and non-living things around them, as they did not understand evolution. So if ignorance started religion, and most are much more intelligent today, then why does religion continue? Many extremely intelligent people are theists, and so present-day religion can only be explained by either nurture, or extreme scientific personality. Children tend to except everything they are told by the people closest to them. So when parents teach their children of their religion, they believe it. These intelligent children then grow up believing in a god, but why do they not abandon religion once they become wiser? And so a type of “insurance” is found in religion. Almost all religions describe at least two afterworlds, one of pleasure, perfection, and happiness, and one of treachery and dissatisfaction. This second afterworld is only mentioned so people are afraid not to believe. And so as thoughts of uncertainty creep into children’s minds, they are pushed out, for fear of rejection into the positive afterworld. However, each year it becomes easier to give up religion. Two generations ago, this was nearly impossible, however in the previous generation, scientific people began to reject religion. There-for, people with scientific thoughts from the previous generation, and children brought up by these same people today, solely produced the majority of the small amount of atheists present in the world today.
I am going refer to Christianity in particular for the remainder of this article. The hypocrisy of this particular religion is maddening. Children are lied to for the first 10 or 11 years of their life about impossible beings (again, proof that children will believe almost anything they are told by there parents.) like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. An adult would be thought of as childish, ignorant, and silly if they were to believe in any of these creatures. Why? Because these creatures have “magic powers”. Yet isn’t God magical? Does he not have the power to create anything he wants, to control everything he creates? An adult who believes in God is not thought of a childish, ignorant, or silly, but instead devoted and respectable! How is Santa any different that God, in general? They both can do inhuman feats, yet one is highly believed to exist, while the other is thought of as silly and childish and made-up.
Largely this belief is based on dependence for some entity to make sure they are doing the right thing. This dedication is a sign of weakness; of one who can’t take care of themselves. And so they pray. And every time something good happens to them, they give credit to God, yet when something bad happens, it must have been the devil. Now lets look at it from a more scientific standpoint. According to the Christian religion, when you die, your “soul” is lifted out of your body and brought to the gates of heaven. If you have been a good person throughout your life, you are allowed entry, however if you have been evil, you are sent to hell. Now lets see if this can be possible. First of all, there is no such thing as a soul. Soul means personality, and personality is chemical imbalances in your brain. For example a generally happy person’s brain produces more sarotonin, a chemical that causes happiness, than an angrier person’s does. So when they say that your souls comes out of your body and rises to heaven, do they mean that a mixture of chemicals evaporates out of your brain and rises up into floating gates in someplace where no one can go? This obviously makes no sense and there for is not possible.
Another point I would like to make regards the theist’s theory of evolution. Most religious people believe that if evolution ever took place, there had to be a designer. This, of course is ridiculous, as most of these people don’t even know what evolution is! Evolution could not have been planned. Evolution is simply this: Over millions of years, creatures were born with defects. The majority of these defected creatures died out, however over time, a small amount of them had a defect, which was to their advantage. This would cause them to stay alive while many normal creatures of the same race could not. These defective, but successful creatures mated with other creatures and some of the children were born with the defect. This continued until the rest of the animals in that particular race had died out, and only the so-called defective ones were left, creating a new species. Obviously, nothing planned out minor defects in animals billions of years ago. Also, I would like to point out that evolution could never take place in humans again, as we have reached civilization. With the variable of technology thrown into this equation, defective creatures that have an advantage, really do not, as the normal class inside the advanced race can create technology to offer everyone the same advantage.
In conclusion, any type of god is completely impossible for the above reasons. Unfortunately, over 92% of people in the United States believe in this concept, and hopefully, someday we will look back this age and laugh at our ignorance. Only then can we advance to our maximum; when there is no longer the threat of God’s wrath.
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 10, 2003 21:43:45 GMT -5
please respond with your reactions to my report.
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 11, 2003 22:14:36 GMT -5
does no one have a response to my report?
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tamara
Broken-in Plebe
Posts: 96
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Post by tamara on Dec 11, 2003 23:08:09 GMT -5
I have tried both ways, and I am far happier as a theist. And I gotta tell you that if your atheistic beliefs lead you to brand us theists as lunatics or idiots, that does not lead me to assume that your way is something I would like to emulate. Sorry.
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Mark
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 19
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Post by Mark on Dec 12, 2003 5:04:20 GMT -5
I'm a Christian. I'll try to be as honest as I can. Please don't think I'm being rude (if it comes across like that, forgive me!). About 92 percent of all Americans believe in some sort of conscious entity who watches over them, and can create other matter on the earth at his own whim. This principle is referred to as theism. Firstly, this is not the definition of theism; these are characteristics of a supreme being believed in. Theism is simply the belief in a supreme being. In almost every known civilization ever formed on earth, some form of religion has been present. Hmm... if this is the case (and I'm not doubting your research), an interesting question would be: why religion always present with civilization? The first religions, formed when the human was much more ignorant, were explanations to questions that could not be answered with their intelligence and technology. For example, the idea that a god created all matter on earth was their explanation for the living and non-living things around them, as they did not understand evolution. Firstly, evolution is the process of change... it does not explain where "everything" came from. Secondly, are you calling me ignorant because I'm a Christian? So if ignorance started religion, and most are much more intelligent today, then why does religion continue? Many extremely intelligent people are theists, and so present-day religion can only be explained by either nurture, or extreme scientific personality. Children tend to except everything they are told by the people closest to them. So when parents teach their children of their religion, they believe it. These intelligent children then grow up believing in a god, but why do they not abandon religion once they become wiser? And so a type of “insurance” is found in religion. How do you explain those who never went to church as a child yet became Christian during adulthood. Or those who were taught Christianity, abandoned it and then embraced it once again in later life. I cite C. S. Lewis and the Apostle Paul. Almost all religions describe at least two afterworlds, one of pleasure, perfection, and happiness, and one of treachery and dissatisfaction. This second afterworld is only mentioned so people are afraid not to believe. Regarding Christianity, Hell is not mentioned simply to scare people into believing... Christians believe it's mentioned because it exists and it is where some will end up. I am going refer to Christianity in particular for the remainder of this article. The hypocrisy of this particular religion is maddening. You must understand that those who call themselves Christian do not claim to be perfect; in fact, it's just the opposite. By identifying myself with Christ I'm saying that I'm not perfect and I can't do it on my own. Children are lied to for the first 10 or 11 years of their life about impossible beings (again, proof that children will believe almost anything they are told by there parents.) like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. An adult would be thought of as childish, ignorant, and silly if they were to believe in any of these creatures. Why? Because these creatures have “magic powers”. Yet isn’t God magical? Does he not have the power to create anything he wants, to control everything he creates? An adult who believes in God is not thought of a childish, ignorant, or silly, but instead devoted and respectable! How is Santa any different that God, in general? They both can do inhuman feats, yet one is highly believed to exist, while the other is thought of as silly and childish and made-up. I don't mean to be rude but you're comparing God to different things entirely. If God created everything that we know then it is not "magical" for Him to create anything else within the creation that we know. For example, if I create a pot out of a lump of clay it's not considered magical for me to add a handle made of the same clay, is it? The mythical creatures you cite are of this creation, if you know what I mean... they'd be part of the world (if they existed). They did not create it and, therefore, have no control over it. Magicians (in the true sense, not illusionists) call on a "higher" power than themselves... something bigger than them. God is the Creator; He did not call on any "higher" power because He is the highest power. Largely this belief is based on dependence for some entity to make sure they are doing the right thing. This dedication is a sign of weakness; of one who can’t take care of themselves. And so they pray. And every time something good happens to them, they give credit to God, yet when something bad happens, it must have been the devil. It's not always the devil... Now lets look at it from a more scientific standpoint. According to the Christian religion, when you die, your “soul” is lifted out of your body and brought to the gates of heaven. If you have been a good person throughout your life, you are allowed entry, however if you have been evil, you are sent to hell. You are very mistaken in your theology here: you do not get in to heaven for good works. If that was possible then Jesus Christ died needlessly. Good works are not a requirement of salvation... rather they are the signs of it. Now lets see if this can be possible. First of all, there is no such thing as a soul. Soul means personality, and personality is chemical imbalances in your brain. For example a generally happy person’s brain produces more sarotonin, a chemical that causes happiness, than an angrier person’s does. So when they say that your souls comes out of your body and rises to heaven, do they mean that a mixture of chemicals evaporates out of your brain and rises up into floating gates in someplace where no one can go? This obviously makes no sense and there for is not possible. I don't believe that I'm simply flesh, bone, blood, chemicals and whatever else. There is something that makes us all unique... something to cause the sarotonin to be produced at a higher rate, if you want to think about it in that context. Another point I would like to make regards the theist’s theory of evolution. Most religious people believe that if evolution ever took place, there had to be a designer. I'm a Christian and I don't deny the presence of micro-evolution... macro-evolution is different, however. This, of course is ridiculous, as most of these people don’t even know what evolution is! Evolution could not have been planned. Evolution is simply this: Over millions of years, creatures were born with defects. The majority of these defected creatures died out, however over time, a small amount of them had a defect, which was to their advantage. This would cause them to stay alive while many normal creatures of the same race could not. These defective, but successful creatures mated with other creatures and some of the children were born with the defect. This continued until the rest of the animals in that particular race had died out, and only the so-called defective ones were left, creating a new species. Obviously, nothing planned out minor defects in animals billions of years ago. Let me mention again that evolution is a process not an event. Natural selection is a means of conservation, not creation. What caused evolution? Also, if macro-evolution did occur why do our museum's not show the gradual changes in fossils? Also, I would like to point out that evolution could never take place in humans again, as we have reached civilization. With the variable of technology thrown into this equation, defective creatures that have an advantage, really do not, as the normal class inside the advanced race can create technology to offer everyone the same advantage. To be honest, I don't really see what you're saying here. I don't understand how you reach this conclusion. In conclusion, any type of god is completely impossible for the above reasons. In my mind you've done nothing to sway me from my convictions. Unfortunately, over 92% of people in the United States believe in this concept, and hopefully, someday we will look back this age and laugh at our ignorance. Only then can we advance to our maximum; when there is no longer the threat of God’s wrath. When God's wrath is quenched it will be too late for a lot of people. I hope I've responded graciously and constructively to your report. I look forward to your feedback!  His, Mark. |
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Post by nonny on Dec 12, 2003 8:42:40 GMT -5
Um.........GODISFAKE most of the stuff you posted seems very opinionated not based on truth and in it's self irrogant. It seems more like a rant rather then research. I for one am atheist, but i try to be nice to poeple that are theist. It doesn't help poeple's perceptiong of athiests if we are mean and rude to theists. So i would have to diagree with almost half the stuff you posted. And by the way theism is something you choose to do, mental illness happens to you or you are born with it.
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Post by Hilly on Dec 12, 2003 20:30:36 GMT -5
And by the way theism is something you choose to do, mental illness happens to you or you are born with it. I agree with nonbeliever here. I will say however that I consider God belief to be illogical, and its proponents to be delusional, as a result of normal human behavior. |
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Post by Maverick on Dec 12, 2003 22:50:58 GMT -5
I am just as weary of attempts by atheists to claim that theists are mentally ill as I am of theists who claim that atheists are corrupt and evil. Both, I believe, are generalizations that deliberately attempt to attack and ostracize a particular group of people rather than reach a logical conclusion about the atheism vs. theism debate.
GODISFAKE, your entire first paragraph did not support your statement that theists are mentally ill. You spent a majority of your time pointing out that the source of religion is ignorance. But if ignorance is a mental illness, I think we all can be considered mentally ill at some points in our lives. Ignorance cannot and should not be considered an illness. Claiming such is ignorance in itself.
Pointing out that religious belief is often times motivated by fear of punishment or promise of reward also does not support the statement that theism is a mental illness. At best, such statements only show the motivations for belief. People do not only expect reward or fear punishment in response to religion. Think about the driver who slows down on the highway when he sees a police officer ahead. His slowing down was motivated by fear of getting caught and reprimanded. Does that make the person mentally ill?
You jump on theists for not knowing about evolution. But, in reading your above explanation of evolution, I feel that your understanding of the theory is probably just as minimal as the theists you are blaming. Evolution is not just a theory about defects in species. Although defects can play a part in which organisms survive and which ones die out, they are not the only factor that affects natural selection. Also, evolution has stopped in human beings? What scientific evidence can you present to back up this statement? Given our technological advances, I find it difficult to believe that humans will not continue to evolve over time (especially since human DNA has been mapped and scientists are researching ways to manipulate DNA to eliminate certain diseases).
Finally, how did you determine that God is impossible? You didn’t offer any points that refuted the existence a deity. You just pointed out what you believe the source of theism is (ignorance) and motives for belief (reward and punishment).
I am an atheist and I agree that the many theists’ beliefs about God are illogical. But I don’t believe you’ve done any service to atheists by calling theism a mental illness and failing to support that point.
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 12, 2003 23:31:02 GMT -5
Ok, obviously my message is very contraversal, so let me explain what i meant here. When i refer to theism as a mental illness, i mean that it is, in many cases, an overdependancy on some supreme being. It is a sign of people who cant handle their life, and there for put it in the hand of someone better than them. I beleive that this can be refered to as a mental ilness, because they are placing to much in the hands of something they can not see or talk to and get a direct response. For example, becomeing a nun. Why would someone give up their entire life and the joys of it to god so they can sit around inside a church and prey for ever, and never have children? It is disruptive of the life cycle. Though many deny it, the only real point of life is to pass our genes on (i.e. have children). Anyway, i do give reasons why god can not be real. Magic does not exist, and theists know it, yet they still beleive in a magic being named God. It is funny how all religions beleive in a god, yet they beleive that every other religions god is non existant! how many christians here beleive in alah or zeus? none i bet!
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Mark
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 19
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Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2003 7:31:14 GMT -5
I addressed your comments on a "magical God" in my above post. Calling God magical is a misunderstanding of Him and His ways.
His,
Mark.
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Mark
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 19
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Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2003 7:34:45 GMT -5
how many christians here beleive in alah or zeus? none i bet! Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said. They believe in Jesus, who claimed to be God (John 8:58; Exodus 3:14), who forgave sins (Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48), and who rose from the dead (Luke 24:24-29; John 2:19f). Jesus said that He was the only way. Jesus is unique. He was either telling the truth, He was crazy, or He was a liar. But since everyone agrees that Jesus was a good man, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar? He had to be telling the truth. He is the only way. Christianity is not just a religion; it is a relationship with God. It is a trusting in Jesus and what He did on the cross (1 Cor. 15:1-4), not on what you can do for yourself (Ephesians 2:8-9). Buddha didn't rise from the dead, nor did Confucius or Zoroaster. Muhammad didn't fulfill detailed prophecy. Alexander the Great didn't raise the dead or heal the sick. And though there is far less reliable information written about them, they are believed in. The scripture is right when it says in 1 Pet. 2:7-8, " This precious value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone,' and, 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense'; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed." (NASB) The above words are from an article written by Matthew Slick. |
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 13, 2003 7:36:38 GMT -5
Ok, fine! first i would like to ask why there are theists on an atheists message board, and then i would like to hear an explanation from YOU! the atheists explain why we think god is not real, lets hear your proof on why he IS real!
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tamara
Broken-in Plebe
Posts: 96
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Post by tamara on Dec 13, 2003 9:27:08 GMT -5
I am here because I was invited. Would you rather just preach to the choir, or throw pot shots at theists without actually having any contact with the reality as it is for theists and not just what theism means in your own mind?!?
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Mark, I am sorry but some of what you say rubs me the wrong way. Buddhism or Islam is a relationship with God also. God is one, there are no other Gods. Some people find God thru Christianity, others elsewhere. God did not create us one size fits all, we all are unique, so it stands to reason that a variety of paths is needed to appeal to the variety of human circumstances...
Jesus never said he was God. Your John quote implies that he was there with God from way back, but it does not say in what capacity. Some Christians think as an angel.
But what I think gives theism real bad rap is the kind of circular argument used, such as what you say above. Ie: the Bible says it is true, so it must be true. Or, there are many other alternatives to Jesus being either right, or crazy, or liar. After all, he might have never existed. Or was misreported. Or ... misunderstood. Or the Gospels were tampered with. Or the interpretation given it by you is wrong. Etc, etc.
Not all Christians believe that Jesus is the only path to God. They interpret the scriptures in accordance with the biblical claim that God's word rains on all creation everywhere, and that even when it comes to the Book, the Jews were there walking with God way before the Jew Jesus showed up...
I think that psychologically speaking, it suits some people to look down their noses on everybody else, as tho they are the only right ones. Why don't you pray about that one? There was no Tree of Certainty in paradise, and to claim it for a human is pure hubris!
I agree with the atheists here that some beliefs about God are illogical. I claim, however, that to believe in God is in itself quite rational and reasonable.
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Mark
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 19
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Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2003 11:24:03 GMT -5
Mark, I am sorry but some of what you say rubs me the wrong way. Sorry to hear that but that's one of the good things about message boards: we can discuss! Buddhism or Islam is a relationship with God also. God is one, there are no other Gods. Some people find God thru Christianity, others elsewhere. God did not create us one size fits all, we all are unique, so it stands to reason that a variety of paths is needed to appeal to the variety of human circumstances... This is heresy. Yes, God is one entity but in three persons - the Trinity. The God of Christianity (Jehovah) is not the same as the god of Islam (Allah). The God of Christianity is not Buddah (wasn't Buddah a man?). (I know you'll say Jesus was a man, but Jesus was first God... John 1:1). Jesus never said he was God. Your John quote implies that he was there with God from way back, but it does not say in what capacity. Some Christians think as an angel. Jesus was always God. Jesus is God. Jesus will be God forever. .: Colossians 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." .: John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Jesus is the Word.) .: John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" .: Exodus 3:14, God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " .: Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." .: See also John 10:30-33, 20:28; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 Mormonism and JWs believe Jesus was an angel but both these groups are considered to be heretical and do not hold true to the Bible's teaching. But what I think gives theism real bad rap is the kind of circular argument used, such as what you say above. Ie: the Bible says it is true, so it must be true. I believe, in the words of John Piper, that Divine Truth is self-authenticating. Also, my belief in God is not centred on what I read in the Bible. By reading the Bible I learn more about Him. Or, there are many other alternatives to Jesus being either right, or crazy, or liar. After all, he might have never existed. Or was misreported. Or ... misunderstood. Or the Gospels were tampered with. Or the interpretation given it by you is wrong. Etc, etc. You doubt the infallibility of the Bible? (2 Timothy 3:16) Not all Christians believe that Jesus is the only path to God. They interpret the scriptures in accordance with the biblical claim that God's word rains on all creation everywhere, and that even when it comes to the Book, the Jews were there walking with God way before the Jew Jesus showed up... If one does not believe Jesus is the only way to God then one is not a Christian. I agree that Jesus didn't come until thousands of years after the first Jew... but what does that matter. Their religion demanded sacrifices for God... their religion is ruled by the Law of Moses. Christianity is ruled simply by Divine grace. I think that psychologically speaking, it suits some people to look down their noses on everybody else, as tho they are the only right ones. Why don't you pray about that one? There was no Tree of Certainty in paradise, and to claim it for a human is pure hubris! I don't look down my nose at anyone. If I come across like that, forgive me. His, Mark. |
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Post by Hilly on Dec 13, 2003 11:51:24 GMT -5
Interesting. Perhaps this forum could also be called Theist vs. Theist?  Mark and tamara nice to have both of you here. |
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Mark and tamara nice to have both of you here.