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Post by Maverick on Dec 13, 2003 12:09:01 GMT -5
Interesting. Perhaps this forum could also be called Theist vs. Theist? Mark and tamara nice to have both of you here. [off topic]Maybe, if we get enough theists and they would like a place to debate each other, I should consider creating such a section....[/off topic]
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tamara
Broken-in Plebe
Posts: 96
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Post by tamara on Dec 13, 2003 12:15:06 GMT -5
Hilly, thank you! This is a nice board to be in so far. Mark, all I claimed and still claim is that Jesus never said he was God. Also, I was merely pointing out you have to put yourself in the shoes of those who you are speaking with, regarding the bible. I myself believe the bible is inspired, certainly. But it being infallible does us no good, since our human understanding is by its nature fallible. As for heresy, well, there are Christians who call you a heretic for believing in the Trinity. And so I ask, what kind of a way to walk is this, where the fellow believers in Jesus are always calling each other names, even denying each other's Christianity, in between they are going to war on each other... how does that square with the commandment to love one another as one's self? What do you mean by that? Jews walked with God, way before there even were any Christians. That by itself turns false your assertion that only the Christian path is valid. There is nothing to forgive. I am enjoying the conversation!
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Post by AuntieSocial on Dec 13, 2003 12:34:38 GMT -5
Ok, fine! first i would like to ask why there are theists on an atheists message board, There are theists on this message board because we welcome their input and it gives everyone the opportunity to understand (or try to understand) where the other side is coming from. Through interaction and discussion (yes, even debate), we, aatheists and thesists alike, are able to have open communications. Although this is an atheist message board, there is no reason for barring theists from participating. The purpose of this board (and the website) is to help people understand the atheist and atheism. I, for one, appreciate the involvement of the theists. I feel it helps me grow as an individual.
With respect to your essay, I wanted to share my position on the origins of religion. I am a nullifidian, an atheist, an agnostic. I have no god-belief in reality. I do, however, admit that there have been over 8,000 deities (over 30,000 if you include the many manifestations and local deities in some religions) in the history of mankind. I agree with you that the concept of a deity was born greatly out of an inability to explain naturally occurring phenomena. I also feel that the Yahweh Cults (as Joseph Campbell called Judaism, Christianity and Islam) to be very controlling systems that seem to have been developed to rule people out of fear. Is belief a mental illness? I would say that those who think they are having a relationship with a non-evident buddy are definately delusional. I'm sure that if a believer encountered someone who thought they were talking to a cloaked Clingon, the believer would have no problem in identifying that behaviour as delusion, yet they don't hold themselves to the same test. I know of someone who is starting up a 5-year study on Christianity and mental illness. I'll mention this thread to her to see if she could share any insight into the topic. I can't promise that she will join in, but I'll definately extend the invitation. If I recall correctly, she is currently pursuing her doctorate in religion.
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 13, 2003 13:35:10 GMT -5
I am glad that someone agrees with me. To all the theists here i would like to say that i will beleive in god when i die and burn in hell, and i will congradulate you on your entry to heaven. However i beleive that we all share a motionless afterlife burried in the earth or our ashes sitting in an ern.
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Post by Hilly on Dec 13, 2003 22:32:02 GMT -5
I know of someone who is starting up a 5-year study on Christianity and mental illness. I'll mention this thread to her to see if she could share any insight into the topic. I can't promise that she will join in, but I'll definately extend the invitation. If I recall correctly, she is currently pursuing her doctorate in religion. I would be very interested to hear her thoughts. Although I can`t see myself being swayed from my opinion that theism is not a mental illness, but merely a common trait of the human psyche.
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tamara
Broken-in Plebe
Posts: 96
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Post by tamara on Dec 14, 2003 11:23:01 GMT -5
Nul`li*fid"i*an, a. [L. nullus none + fide? faith.] Of no faith; also, not trusting to faith for salvation; -- opposed to {solifidian}. Cool -- a new word for me.... Auntie, I agree that many of the versions of the religions of the Book tend to be controlling, but not in all versions, for example Quakers, or some Jewish paths. In any case, secular paths can be very controlling too. I don't think this per se can be used to dismiss those religions. I think... you know, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, that sort of thing... And I thought, that Elwood P. Dowd in Harvey is the sanest character of them all; isn't that the whole point of the movie? Godisfake: I don't believe that God will forsake you for believing wrongly. We are all fallible. You will get another chance. Some day, I am confident I'll see ya in heaven. Dunno... this whole notion of religion as mental illness is kinda insulting. And way too encompassing. Maybe we should call stupidity mental illness too? Or gullibility (whether religious or secular)? Then where do you stop? In my view, people who function well in the world and do right by themselves and their fellows, whatever they believe, are not mentally ill in any possible sense I could think of. I also think that falling for a dogma is a spiritual trap, not a disease.
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Post by nonny on Dec 14, 2003 14:31:40 GMT -5
Ok, fine! first i would like to ask why there are theists on an atheists message board, and then i would like to hear an explanation from YOU! the atheists explain why we think god is not real, lets hear your proof on why he IS real! no offence but you sound kinda ignorant, and theists are welcome here, it would be kinda boring to have no opinions from poeple that are the oppistie of your own belief.
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Post by droskey on Dec 15, 2003 21:07:09 GMT -5
I'll chime in here too. GODISFAKE, I think that you are going out on a limb by claiming that those that believe in God are mentally ill. First, you've put no qualifiers in your thesis. Are you claiming that all belief in God qualifies as mental illness? What about spirituality in general? In my opinion, you need to put some qualifiers in there.
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 16, 2003 17:24:30 GMT -5
It would appear that all you people can comment about is my statement that religion is a mental illness. It seems to me that you guys love to critisize, but never comment positively! So, from now on, please disregard my comparison between religion and mental illness, i simply meant that in some cases people get over dependant and i DO, however beleive that over dependance on anything you cannot see or openly comunicate with (ex. imaginary friend) can be cosidered mental illness, ESPECIALLY IN ADULTS.
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Post by GODISFAKE on Dec 16, 2003 17:32:28 GMT -5
Looking back on this last post, i see room for confusion. Let me reword my final statment. I believe that over dependance on somthing you can not see and/or openly comunicate with, AS LONG IS IT OBSCURES THE FUNCTIONALITY OF YOUR LIFE, can be considered mental illness, ONLY if your an adult. Children can not yet be considered non-functional.
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Post by droskey on Dec 16, 2003 20:50:54 GMT -5
GODISFAKEThis probably because this was the most contentious part of your post and the part that most of the responders disagree with. GODISFAKE This is a bit of an over-generalization again. Besides we learn more from criticism than we do from praise and you asked us to comment on it, twice . GODISFAKEGODISFAKEThat being said, you added some qualifiers in your last post. GODISFAKENow I will say something constructive . I more or less agree with this statement, I think. Now to prove your thesis you would probably need to explain what you mean when you say that something "obscures the functionality" of one's life. You would then need to offer an argument for how religion does this. This would greatly strengthen your report. You would also need to get rid of any assersions which are poorly defined or for which you offer no supporting arguments. Statements like the following, GODISFAKEThis statement is contentious and confusing. First you assert that souls do not exist before you define what you mean by soul. You then offer a definition for the soul, "personality, and personality is chemical imbalances in your brain". Personalities and chemical imbalances clearly exist. Clearly, you meant that some other type of soul does not exist. It is that type of soul that you need to define. Then you must offer supporting arguments to support you position that these souls do not exist. GODISFAKEThis is another contentious quote. I don't know that any of us are qualified to say why someone believes something. Even if you are just speculating, you might get called on it. Also, in this statement, you seem to suggest that theists cannot take care of themselves. My experience attests to something different. Theists (and yes Christians) tend to be as capable of taking care of themselves and their families as anyone else. Cheers.
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Post by nonny on Dec 16, 2003 23:17:47 GMT -5
It would appear that all you people can comment about is my statement that religion is a mental illness. It seems to me that you guys love to critisize, but never comment positively! So, from now on, please disregard my comparison between religion and mental illness, i simply meant that in some cases people get over dependant. You asked for our comments on your post, so that is what we did, so are you made at us for doing exactly that? First off children can have mental illness and imaginary friends are only good for them up to a certian age. Secondly who is to dicide what is non-fuctional, theist can be very fuctional while believeing in God. So steroetypeing all religion on a few nutjobs isn't that great of a thing to do, we ussally don't like it when us,atheists, are streotyped. I for one hate steroetypes and hypocrites, that is not directed at anyone.
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Post by Yaw on Dec 16, 2003 23:41:44 GMT -5
I'm in the "Not agreeing with GODISFAKE" camp. That being said, I'm not interested in rehashing the current debate. Instead I want to ask a couple questions about points that haven't been addressed yet in the first post.
GODISFAKE
Even the "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" version? The point here is that saying that Santa Claus doesn't physically exist says nothing about whether or not Santa Claus exists metaphorically (as a symbol of the "spirit of giving"). Would an adult be thought of as childish, ignorant, and silly if he/she believed in the metaphoric version of Santa Claus?
GODISFAKE
That last sentence has me wondering. What would "advancing to our maximum" entail, exactly? What do you conceive to be the maximum advancement of humanity? Why is that strongly dependent on a lack of theism?
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Post by nonny on Dec 17, 2003 8:43:00 GMT -5
I have the same questions as Yaw. Really good points there.
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Post by AuntieSocial on Dec 17, 2003 19:08:01 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that I agree entirely with the position that belief in a God is a mental illness. I do, however, believe that it is delusional. Is delusion a mental defect though? If it is, aren't we all delusional, to some extent, at some time? I know that I have moments of whim & fantasy. I also have an extremely active imagination (much like a child's imagination when they believe they have invisible friends). Am I metally ill? I don't think so, actually, psychiatrists and psychologists don't think so either. I do suffer from the occassional bout of depression, but there is nothing about my psyche that would be considered "ill". What is different from my fantasies/imaginings and those of a God-believer? I guess the only difference is my awareness that my imaginings are not real. Or, should I say, I believe them to be unreal. That being said, the concept that God-belief is a mental defect is not a new one. I know of many atheists who share that position. Are any of them psychiatrists who can recognise and diagnose mental illness? No. Until such time that there are results from a psychiatric or psychological analysis/study, I will refrain from equating God-belief with mental illness. I do feel that those who think they communicate (in a two-way manner) with a deity are imagining the interchange, just as a four-year-old may blame thier misconduct on an invisible friend. But, that is my opinion only. It is not based on anything concrete. I have no studies I can cite, no learned professionals I can quote. So, it is merely conjecture. As I mentioned earlier, The University of Glasgow will be conducting a 5-year study on the links (if any) between Christianity and mental illness. This study has not started yet, but should be shortly. I haven't had the opportunity to invite one of the participants (she is one of those conducting the study) to comment on this thread.
Another thing I would like to comment on is the 92% statistic that was given in the paper. Where did you come up with that figure? What year was that from? What method of polling was used? I went to Adherents.com to look at their statistics. These were taken from the 2000 Census. Vote by Religion (% of Voters) Protestant (54%) Catholic (26%) Jewish (4%) Other (6%) None (9%) Info Please lists the number of atheists (as of the mid-1990's) at 14.6%
I'd also like to make a general comment about some of the replies that have been made in this thread. Some of them, quite frankly, made me cringe. Remember, "Critisize the argument, not the person defending it" This is one of the message board rules of conduct. I'm not going to name any names or quote any particular posts, but please, try to keep things civil. If you do/don't agree with something, post your reasons. This will allow for further dialogue without (hopefully) people getting on the defensive.
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