If there is no god then what?

[dragonfly]

For all the atheists I have a question....How does anything exist? And why do you find the idea of a creator more incredible than a self creating universe?.I realise that belief in a god also causes the question to be asked how god was created.

There is something.The universe exists.How? Should there not be NOTHING.? Do you think one day there will be nothing again?

[pieisgood]

I consider myself half atheist, half agnostic. I believe that the idea of atheism is true, but not complete. It lacks proof as to the beginning of everything. To answer your question: It boils down to whether 1) an extremely dense ball of matter came out of nowhere or 2) out of nothing came an all-powerful being who created the universe. I find the concept of somehow the nothing-ness coming together to form matter-think about it, it has an infinite amount of time to do so- more realistic then an all powerfull being just "happening." I've heard about theories of the "big suck" or something to that effect where everything in the universe goes back to the ball of matter, then years later it goes back to a universe.... I didn't quite understand it.

[Maverick]

dragonfly

For all the atheists I have a question....How does anything exist?

How did the universe come into existence? I don't claim to know the answer to that question. I will not, however, assume that a god created the universe just because there is a gap in my knowledge.

There are scientific theories about the universe that I might find compelling or interesting. (I'll let those more versed in science post the specifics of current theories involving the origin of the universe.) But, even if current theories about the origin of the universe are later found to be false, I still won't fill my gap of knowledge with a god. A lack of knowledge is a poor excuse for believing that a god created the universe.

I'm perfectly fine with an "I don't know" answer. I exist in this world and all that really matters to me is how we live in the world. Much like Yaw stated in another thread, I am much more concerned with questions involving ethics rather than cosmology. I do think that the origin of the universe is interesting though.

dragonfly

And why do you find the idea of a creator more incredible than a self creating universe?

I don't find it more incredible, I find the idea of a creator unnecessarily complicated and unsupported. Most theists tend to believe that God (capital G) is eternal. If it is possible for something to be eternal, why can't the universe itself be the same?

If one wants to go the other route and claim that the universe has a beginning (which is, I think, the general consensus of most of the scientific community), then I have some other questions to ask. Why couldn't the universe have started without a creator? Which brings me to your next observation:

dragonfly

I realise that belief in a god also causes the question to be asked how god was created.

Isn't that a perfectly valid question? Theists will often assert that the universe appears to be intelligently designed. Who could create a universe that operates in this way? Then, your point becomes a valid question. Surely, in order to create such an intelligently designed universe, the creator must have also been intelligent. Who/what created the creator? We can keep going back ad infinitum with such a line of questioning.

[Mistwalker]

"For all the atheists I have a question....How does anything exist?"
I personally don't know, and I think saying "I don't know" is better than making something up.

"And why do you find the idea of a creator more incredible than a self creating universe?"
This is a loaded question, assuming we find the idea of a creator more incredible than a "self created" universe. I think moreover it's a misconception about atheism. We don't hold a positive belief in a deity. This doesn't mean we eliminate the possibility. Some do, some don't.

"I realise that belief in a god also causes the question to be asked how god was created."
Yep, you can't arbitrarily assign which things need causality. If the universe NEEDS to have been created, then so does God.

"There is something."
I agree.

"The universe exists."
Seems to.

"How?"
Dunno.

"Should there not be NOTHING.?"
Can something come from nothing? I'm not sure. Perhaps there always was something.

"Do you think one day there will be nothing again?"
I have no idea. This question also assumes there was nothing previously, which I am also unsure of.

(modified to get rid of smileys which screwed up the post)

[screw]

why is it that theists can't figure out anything?
it's always the same old moronic questions which reveal their self-insecurities, and self-hatreds.

boring.

[Yaw]

*Pointing at Network Policy*

Please try to avoid pejoratives, screw. It's not that difficult to discuss theism without descending into insults. Please try.

That said, I don't think your argument was very accurate. The original question posted, "How does anything exist?" isn't moronic at all. It's a question which many scientists are studying in their respective fields. Now, there may be moronic answers to the question (six-day Creationism comes to mind), but that doesn't mean that theists naturally have moronic answers -- most don't. I also find it problematic that you'd consider any theist to be full of self-hate and insecurity. There are certainly depressed and insecure people in any group, including atheists, but that doesn't translate into the entire group having those qualities. In my experience, psychoanalyzing others on a message board is a good way to get one's ass kicked. Which is not to say I expect that to happen here, but it is to say that it will lead to very counterproductive reactions.

[AuntieSocial]

dragonfly

For all the atheists I have a question....How does anything exist?

Well, I'm going to echo a few other respondants here. I don't know. And, as others have mentioned, I'm not going to attribute the answer to a supernatural being that is not, in my opinion, evident.

There was a time when thunder, lightning, rain, and many other natural occurrences were attributed to god(s). Science, or scientific method, has provided us with answers. I prefer not to limit or discredit humanity by saying that something that can't be explained today won't be explained in the future.

I imagine that if primitive man and his descendants hadn't attributed the unknown to deities (and, instead, looked for the answers) we wouldn't have all of these deities running amok.

Of course, this doesn't mean that men wouldn't have created a god, such as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god, as a control mechanism, but many others wouldn't have had a function.

dragonfly

And why do you find the idea of a creator more incredible than a self creating universe?.

I personally think that the same things that can be said about a creator god can be said about the universe. If a god always was, why couldn't the universe have always been? I'm not a science-minded person. Musch of the theories about the origins are, quite frankly, lost on me. However, I do feel that some questions should be answered honestly ("I/We don't know") instead of creating an answer.

There are many differing accounts of creation. These range from the 6-day creation completely controlled by a deity, to mankind washing up from the sea and being found (inanimate or unborn) on the shores by a creator. The creation myths come in all shapes and forms. The only thing all of these explanations have in common is the underlying question, "Where did we come from?"

Is it reasonable to accept the 6-day creation as the absolute truth and discredit the Mayans, for example? The Mayan tradition is much older than the Judeo-Christian story ... why is theirs discredited and the Judeo-Christian explanation continues?

Or, is it more reasonable to admit that we don't have the answers and support those that have the ability to (hopefully) someday provide an answer?

dragonfly

I realise that belief in a god also causes the question to be asked how god was created.

Yep, it sure does. If nothing is eternal, how can the god be eternal? If a god created the universe and its inhabitants, what created the god? As Maverick posted, these are good questions, and ones that any believer needs to be able to reconcile with their faith. If they believe in a particular version of creation, how do they continue believing in the face of such questions?

dragonfly

There is something. The universe exists. How?

To parrot Mistwalker, I agree; Seems to; Dunno.

dragonfly

Should there not be NOTHING.? Do you think one day there will be nothing again?

Again, as already addressed by Mistwalker, this assumes that there was once nothing. Perhaps the universe always was. Always expanding and contracting. Perhaps there was nothing and something suddenly appeared. This is one of those questions that I, personally, don't think we will ever answer, but, again, I resist putting limitations on our capabilities based on my inability to comprehend.

To me, though, none of us were there. There are no first-hand accounts of what happened. We have not had the luxury of observing the creation of another universe, nor the destruction of an entire universe. Maybe the actual universe defies the natural laws that those within it must comply with. Maybe not. Basically, at this point, I shrug and turn my thouhts toward what I, as a humanitarian consider to be the more important questions. "We are. So, what are we going to do about the mess we have made? What are we going to do to make the present and future better?"

I'll leave the science up to the scientists ... my concern is the people who we can experience in the present reality.

That last bit was off topic, but I included it to demonstrate that not everyone takes vast amounts of time & energy on the considerations of the origins. I don't. I know others who don't. The fact that we are here is indisputable.

[dragonfly]

Firstly thanks for all the responses...I found them of enormous interest.And I hope people continue to respond as positively and as heart-felt as most of you did.This board is fantastic! I find the high level of intelligent communication astonishing and a real pleasure!

I would like to re-establish as I stated in my introduction/greeting that I am neither Theist or Atheist.I myself hold(in some cases quite conflicting) dual possibilities and beliefs that support both views(and some alternate ones!).I am here because both views are of intense interest to me and I value both views.One day I hope to make my mind up.

[tamara]

I too think this board is great! :-) I am grateful to management for making sure the terminally uncouth do not ruin it for the rest of us...

In response to the above... I think a lot of what people believe about the ultimate things, so to speak, has to do with their temperament. I am far happier inhabiting a world with God in it. But I accept that for others, it can be different. And it is also different at different stages in life. Still, all this remains a fascination, and I love to discuss it across the various belief boundaries. So, carry on, good people!

[Hilly]

AuntieSocial said:

dragonfly
Again, as already addressed by Mistwalker, this assumes that there was once nothing. Perhaps the universe always was. Always expanding and contracting. Perhaps there was nothing and something suddenly appeared. This is one of those questions that I, personally, don't think we will ever answer, but, again, I resist putting limitations on our capabilities based on my inability to comprehend.

Personally I can never get this thought of there being nothing as logical. Surely nothing cannot exist, as nothing must be comprised of something. I guess we just don`t know what exactly?

[zoul]

Has anyone heard of emergence phanomana ?

[Hilly]

zoul said:

Has anyone heard of emergence phanomana ?

Zoul, I had not till now. I did some digging and came up with a very interesting article. It can be found here: www.aaas.org/spp/dser/petworkshop/hazenlecture.shtml
Quoted from the article;
"Emergence theory describes how, if energy passes through a system in a controlled way, it can become a force for creation, for producing new phenomena that were not there before and would otherwise not have occurred."

[Maverick]

Hilly said:

Personally I can never get this thought of there being nothing as logical. Surely nothing cannot exist, as nothing must be comprised of something. I guess we just don`t know what exactly?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that nothing is the abscence of something?

[ck]

well ive just read through this whole thing and really enjoyed read it.... and this might put a mind boggle on u but really think into the origins of everythign and their should be nothing nothing shoudl exist not one thing.....

[Hilly]

Maverick said:

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that nothing is the abscence of something?

Yes I suppose it would. However I did find this definition of nothing at Dictionary.com: "Something that has no existence."
But any way one may want to define the word, I still have trouble with the concept of nothing existing.
Oh well, I also get flustered with the concept of infinity as well