tim
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 6
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Post by tim on Apr 19, 2004 11:45:02 GMT -5
hi all,
i am a christian, but i respect your views and have been wondering...
my question is simply this - why do you choose to be atheists? now i dont mean why dont you believe. its just, i know a lot of people who arent of any faith but simply dont have that aspect to their life at all. well as for you guys your non-belief is clearly a fairly major part of it - seeing as you post on message boards and such.
i mean christians get together because they all share the same belief (at least generally), well as you seem to have come together because you all dont believe something. its like you might join a swimming club if you like swimming, but theres no "we hate swimming" clubs (that i know of anyway). and atheism kinda seems to be the equivalent of that... i hope you see my point.
tim.
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Post by Maverick on Apr 19, 2004 13:54:19 GMT -5
Welcome to the boards tim. I'm happy to see that you've brought your questions to us.
I think what leads most atheists to outwardly stating their lack of belief is the relevance it has to their own lives. Before I became an atheist, religious belief was a very important part of my life. When I later dismissed religion as my source of values and support, the reasoning I used for such a dismissal became important to me.
Many of the atheists who post here do not have other outlets through which they can comfortably share their views about religion, faith, etc. Other posters may just enjoy communicating with people who also share their opinion about belief in gods.
We identify ourselves as atheists because it describes our lack of belief in gods. But each individual atheist will have to tell you why they choose to express their atheism because such reasons vary from person to person.
tim
I disagree with part of the above quote. The comparison between people who hate swimming and atheists is not accurate. Though there are atheists who might say they hate god (which is illogical to start with), atheism itself is not a hatred of gods or religion. It is merely a lack of belief.
It is true, though, that some people are turned off by atheism because they see it as negative. It is a negative position because it describes a group of people who do not positively affirm the existence of a god. But I think many theists (and maybe some atheists) mistakenly think that atheists cannot have positive outlooks or happiness because of their atheism. I don't think atheism is negative in the emotional sense.
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livinitup
Broken-in Plebe
In God I trust
Posts: 69
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 16:45:27 GMT -5
Though there are atheists who might say they hate god (which is illogical to start with), atheism itself is not a hatred of gods or religion. It is merely a lack of belief. A better example of this is a Pegan correct, who hates God but likes a Demonic leader wether it be the devil or some other type, such as Baal? Im still tring to grasp atheists between these two different threads we have going, which in this one you said Oh i get it so you dont nessesarally (sp on that sorry) say there is no God just he does not play an active role? If that is the case what does he do? |
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Post by pieisgood on Apr 19, 2004 16:55:01 GMT -5
That's not me, Liv. I don't believe that there is a God, but I don't think it's possible to be absolutely 100% sure. (hence the atheist/agnostic stance)
Tim, I'll try to explain it, but you raise a tough question (and a good one).
Imagine if the whole world were a swimming place. There were many different types of swimmers- freestyle, backstroke, etc.- but they all liked swimming. People stated their love of swimming openly, it plays an active role in the laws and government. You, however, are different. You don't like swimming. Suddenly, people decide that you're immoral (heh) and that you are evil. You are surrounded by people who want you to swim. You would feel like an outcast. But then, you find out that there are other people in the same category. They don't like swimming either. You have a place, an "I hate swimming" club, where you can talk to people with similar experiences, who agree with you, and you can work out the logical reasons that you don't like swimming. THEN is an "I hate swimming" club unreasonable?
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tim
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 6
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Post by tim on Apr 19, 2004 17:16:03 GMT -5
yeh i realised the swimming club analogy was a little ropey! but at least it allowed you to explain it pretty clearly. i guessed it was probably a safety-in-numbers thing, which is basically what you just described. i didnt suggest that as i wondered if any atheists had other reasons, and didnt want to influence their thinking about it. does anyone else have a different reason? its the same with anything really - if you like something uncommon, or dislike something common - you will form a group and find others that share your views.
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Post by AuntieSocial on Apr 19, 2004 18:13:06 GMT -5
To help clarify things here (I hope), there are two distinct levels of atheism.
First, there are the "agnostic atheists," "implicit atheists," some would call them the "weak atheists." These people do not believe in a God because there is not sufficient evidence to support a belief. I fall into this category. It is possible that there may be a deity, I just haven't seen enough evidence to cause me to believe in one. (Also, Tim, belief is not something one chooses to have. You either believe, or you don't.)
Second, there is the "explicit atheists," or "strong atheists." These people do not believe in a God and will state that there are no Gods. Basically, the lack of evidence speaks for the lack of existence.
Either way, we are atheists because we don't believe. That's what the term atheist means ... no god-belief. Since believing is not a matter of choice, we did not choose to be atheists. We are, however, willing to openly accept the term as being a description of ourselves.
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Post by Yaw on Apr 19, 2004 19:08:28 GMT -5
Forgot to address this side-issue earlier:
livinitup
You're judging Paganism (which isn't monolithic anyway) based on what the bible tells you about it 2000+ years ago, rather than what Pagans actually believed (or believe now, for Neo-Paganism). You came to us to get a view on atheism from the source; wouldn't it be better to do the same for Pagans than just to claim their conceptions of deity are demonic?
Edited because I really can spell.
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Post by Maverick on Apr 19, 2004 19:11:28 GMT -5
livinitup
To the best of my understanding, pagans are polytheists (people who believe in more than one god). I think you were thinking of Satanists in the quote above. However, not all Satanists actually believe in Satan. The brand of Satanism founded by Anton Szandor LaVey does not believe in a god and uses the term "Satanism" to make Christians angry.
livinitup
What you just described (God not playing an active role) is not atheism, but deism. Deists are people who believe that a god exists but does not interfere with human affairs.
To go back to the question Tim posed, livinitup's attempt to grasp atheism is an example of another reason why atheists might want to join in groups. If atheists wish to be understood, it is important that they can explain their lack of belief to people. Atheist groups (like this message board) give theists a visible place to come and ask atheists questions about things they don't understand.
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tim
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 6
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Post by tim on Apr 19, 2004 19:31:50 GMT -5
(Also, Tim, belief is not something one chooses to have. You either believe, or you don't.) whoops yes sorry, monumental mistake on my part! i think i meant as in choose to just not bother with religion or actually make a point of it and call yourself an atheist but phrased it kind of badly. cheers for all your replies by the way. its all very interesting. |
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Post by Griffey on Apr 19, 2004 19:49:11 GMT -5
Hello, tim and livinitup, sorry this is the first time I've seen you around, welcome!
To answer your first question, I for one didn't chose atheism, and yet in a way I did. To clarify, I am an agnostic atheist; I don't think there's a god or gods, but I don't think anyone, myself included, can know for sure. I was raised without a belief in god(s) and after learning a bit about other religions (mostly Christianity, as I had the most access to it) none of them really seemed to make any more sense in my head. So I suppose I could have "converted" to Christianity or some other religion, followed the rules, done everything, but I doubt I could be sincere in my belief. I would still be, in effect, an atheist, whether I liked it or not.
However, in a sense I did choose atheism, although perhaps not strictly speaking. I choose to identify myself as an atheist and not attempt to join a religion or other belief set. This is because I am okay with my beliefs; they make sense to me, I am happy with them, they don't land me in therapy because of one aspect that drives me mad.
Also, I agree with Maverick whole-heartedly: part of the reason I enjoy this type of message-board environment is to share and discuss with both atheists and theists in order to understand each other better. I'm sure that while being around people who have something in common with you is a major reason why people join these boards, I think understanding is another.
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livinitup
Broken-in Plebe
In God I trust
Posts: 69
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 20:26:41 GMT -5
Forgot to address this side-issue earlier: livinitup You're judging Paganism (which isn't monolithic anyway) based on what the bible tells you about it 2000+ years ago, rather than what Pagans actually believed (or believe now, for Neo-Paganism). You came to us to get a view on atheism from the source; wouldn't it be better to do the same for Pagans than just to claim their conceptions of deity are demonic? Edited because I really can spell.Thats a negative, i got these views from my days here on campus watching the pegan student alliance. I did not however read into the bible about them... So perhaps the pegans that i have been talking too are different... However i do understand your point, i was abit off topic with that remark, i did not however mean any disrespect by it. |
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livinitup
Broken-in Plebe
In God I trust
Posts: 69
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 20:31:27 GMT -5
Also, I agree with Maverick whole-heartedly: part of the reason I enjoy this type of message-board environment is to share and discuss with both atheists and theists in order to understand each other better. I'm sure that while being around people who have something in common with you is a major reason why people join these boards, I think understanding is another. Wow man thanks bunches. I agree 100 percent with what you just wrote, Im very glad you stayed true to yourself and did not try to fake something if you felt you did not honistly believe it, There are many people today in the church like that, its upsetting. This board is great i have learned so much alrdy and enjoy being able to have open discussions and debates for clarity. It really is quite fun. Glad to be a part of it all  |
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Post by AuntieSocial on Apr 19, 2004 20:49:42 GMT -5
whoops yes sorry, monumental mistake on my part! i think i meant as in choose to just not bother with religion or actually make a point of it and call yourself an atheist but phrased it kind of badly. cheers for all your replies by the way. its all very interesting. Not a problem, Tim. I just wanted to point out the issue about 'choosing' to be an atheist because there is still a concept out there that belief is a matter of choice. Pascal (french mathematician and theologian) came up with a concept that people should believe in a deity because it is a safer bet. His phiosophy, called Pascal's Wager has many problems, one of them being the idea that one can choose to believe. With respect to why I choose to participate in a board that allows me to openly voice my atheist position, it's rather simple. Please note that this is my reason, and may not reflect the reasons of other members on this board. I was raised in an extremely religious environment. My grandparents were missionaries, two of my uncles are ministers (one is currently doing missionary work in Mozambique). I was surrounded by the concept of a loving God who would provide for others. While I was a skeptic most of my life and questioned everything, I was particularly drawn to questioning the "love" shown by church groups both here and abroad. I read the bible and mission reports and felt sickened by the treatment of those who enjoyed different cultures. I watched while religious organizations stood in the way of medical advances and the rights of minorities and women. My initial interest in this board was acedemic. I wanted to see what other atheists discussed (I am also a member of another atheist board, as well as participating in debates and discussions on a voice chat network). I wanted to learn more about comparitive religions as well as philosophy and science (the latter has been a struggle for me for as long as I can recall). Basically, I wanted to learn everything I could to help me be a better humanitarian. What I gained (in addition to the above noted) is a sort of family. Although I have a family in real life, I do not have many people who are not religious. (My husband is an atheist, but he has never felt the influences of religion on his life, so he feels no need to discuss religion. I have felt religion encroach on my rights. I feel a need to speak to others who have also endured the same thing.) I feel as if I have a family, of sorts, of like minded individuals. People who I care for and who I believe care for me. I can turn to my friends here and on the other venues I participate on when I need advice or just a shoulder to cry on (okay, I rarely cry, but I know there is support if I need it). I don't have that luxury with my family. On most occassions when I have needed someone who can be strong for/with me, my family (with the exception of my mother and husband) turn to prayer. I don't hate God, I simply don't believe that one exists, as one is not evident to me. That's how my mind works. I can, however, put my trust in people who have proved themselves by being a voice of reason in times of uncertainty. Since I've been here, I've never questioned my being an atheist, I have been an atheist all my life, but it is good to know that when I have questions about particular doctrines or religions, there is usually someone here who has some insight. It is also through my interaction with atheists around the world, on boards such as this one, that I have come to the decision to return to University and continue my education and exploration of philosophy and comparative religions. Wow - how's that for a lot of verbiage to say that I love the members on this board? |
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Post by BaalShemRa on Apr 19, 2004 20:49:48 GMT -5
Can we start spelling "Pagan" right?
Oh, and the word "Pagan" is like the word "Infidel" or "goy", it means "those people with the beliefs I find ridiculous." A Hindu is a Pagan, a Satanist if a Pagan, someone who believes in Norse beliefs is a Pagan, the Greeks were Pagans, the Amerindians were Pagans. They had little in common besides not being Christians.
So stop talking about Pagan beliefs.
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livinitup
Broken-in Plebe
In God I trust
Posts: 69
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Post by livinitup on Apr 19, 2004 23:41:54 GMT -5
Can we start spelling "Pagan" right? So stop talking about Pagan beliefs. Thanks for the spelling correction if you read in my above post i ended my discussion on them |
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