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Post by A Souless Demon on Dec 13, 2004 0:27:30 GMT -5
wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if we died and for some reason we found out there was a god? wouldn't that suck? im not saying its gonna happen... but its sorta disturbing to think about that. now i have the chills. *shudder*
p.s. jesus was gay because he asked men to get on their knees.
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Post by EvenThen on Dec 13, 2004 0:38:05 GMT -5
p.s. jesus was gay because he asked men to get on their knees. How mature. The thing is, if there is no God, I don't lose. If there is a God, I don't lose. So either way, I'm fine. But if there is a God, you're sorta screwed.
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Post by A Souless Demon on Dec 13, 2004 0:42:06 GMT -5
actually, "god" would forgive me or w/e. also, id prefer to be in hell where its warmer
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Post by droskey on Dec 13, 2004 13:51:22 GMT -5
EvenThen This isn't true, though. A person can stand to lose a great deal by investing a lot of time, energy and resources into something that turns out to be untrue. If this life is truly all we have, anything that we give up under false pretenses is truly tragic. Here are some things that I believe theists (and Christians in particular) "give up" if their beliefs turn out to be untrue.
1.) Time. All the time they spend in "worship services" and teaching a doctrine that is untrue. All the time spent studying a doctrine that is untrue. All the time praying to a diety that is either not there, does not hear them, does not care to answer their prayers, etc.
2.) Resources. If a Christian is truly devoted to doing as the Bible commands, they are at least giving 10% of their income to the church. This money typically goes into nothing else than running the church. It is the way the church functions. Therefore, it benefits humanity in no other way than to maintain the religious infrastructure. If what the church teaches is false, then these resources are being wasted.
3.) Energy and Peace of mind. This varies from sect to sect, but I think that it is the most important loss. When I was a Christian, I remember being concerned for those who were "unsaved". This was a constant source of sadness for me. Knowing that there were those who would go into eternity and suffer for no other reason than that they didn't believe. I worried for family and friends. I worried about the state of the world and felt a deep sadness that mankind was, at its core, rotten and on the road to destruction. There was nothing that I could do about it, because it was God's will. It was how He chose to bring about his brand of redemption. When I stopped believing, ALL these worries went away. I became hopeful again about humanity. The death of loved ones was no longer a bleak prospect, although it is still sad to see them go. This is one of the things that I felt best about once I realized that I didn't believe and I came to peace with that. I could let go of a warped world view that didn't sit with me very well.
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Post by solidsquid on Dec 13, 2004 14:07:55 GMT -5
How mature. The thing is, if there is no God, I don't lose. If there is a God, I don't lose. So either way, I'm fine. But if there is a God, you're sorta screwed. Pascal's Wager just never seems to go away no matter how many centuries go into it's refutation.
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Post by vertigo on Dec 13, 2004 14:26:45 GMT -5
There's no value in addressing it. Alone it says no less than you could.
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Dec 13, 2004 19:06:14 GMT -5
The thing is, if there is no God, I don't lose. If there is a God, I don't lose. So either way, I'm fine. But if there is a God, you're sorta screwed. The problem is however... you are more than likely worshipping the wrong god(s). Pascal's wager doesn't take into account the infinite number of god(s) possible.
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Post by A Souless Demon on Dec 13, 2004 19:22:35 GMT -5
i believe in no god, and i do not believe in afterlife. plus, i plan to live at least another 40 years unless there is a freak accident that kills me. i do not care about what happens when i die.
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ToxicMoon
Seasoned Citizen
Delusional One
Posts: 129
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Post by ToxicMoon on Dec 13, 2004 22:42:01 GMT -5
How mature. The thing is, if there is no God, I don't lose. If there is a God, I don't lose. So either way, I'm fine. But if there is a God, you're sorta screwed. That quote sounds like you're not believing in god for your own spiritual well-being but that you are motivated by fear. Why are you so afraid?
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Post by EvenThen on Dec 14, 2004 12:02:16 GMT -5
No, just approaching it in context to Souless Demon's approach.
Jacopo- if there is no God, and really no point to my existance, if I'm here by random chance, than why does it matter about all that? So if I lose peace of mind by worrying about the unsaved, it is no different then you worrying about the lack of jam on your toast in the morning.
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Post by droskey on Dec 14, 2004 13:33:50 GMT -5
EvenThen Although the universe doesn't give a crap about how you direct your resources or what you worry about or how you spend your time, I assume that you do. My point is that I care about how I use what is mine. It matters to me. And to say that I lose nothing by believeing something that is untrue is not accurate.
EvenThen So you are equivocating my worrying about the eternal suffering of a loved one with whether I have "jam on [my] toast". I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. I am guessing that you are saying that one form of worry is the same as another form. If that is what you are saying, then you are wrong.
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Post by EvenThen on Dec 14, 2004 13:38:33 GMT -5
If there is no reason for existence, then isn't all worry the same?
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Post by droskey on Dec 14, 2004 13:54:34 GMT -5
No, I don't think that all forms of worry are the same. Do you? Do you really not see the difference between worrying about the well being of a loved one and worrying about "jam on toast"?
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Post by EvenThen on Dec 14, 2004 14:11:22 GMT -5
No, I do not believe that. But where is the meaning of existence without God? If we have no purpose or reason to live, then what would be the point of worrying if this life won't amount to anything in the end anyways?
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Post by droskey on Dec 14, 2004 14:24:27 GMT -5
Apparently, you misunderstand my point. But I'll address your last question before I get us back on topic. I don't derive my sense of self or my sense of meaning from a diety. These things are defined by me for my own life. If I want meaning in my life, I have have to define that meaning. As long as I am doing what I want to and I am directing my life in a way that seems good to me, I will be satisfied with the meaning of my life.
And I generally agree with you, worry doesn't ever amount to anything. However, doing things about stuff that we worry about, can bring about change. If I am concerned about the well being of a loved one and I take action to help them and thereby make their lives better, then my concern has served a purpose.
However, my original point was that I worried about certain things when I was a believer (i.e. about the "salvation" of loved ones) that I no longer worry about. So I now view that worry as pointless suffering that I endured. I was worrying about something that was not real. My contention is that is a waste. Worry, when it prompts you to make a positive change in a realistic way isn't necessarily a bad thing.
So my point was not that I don't worry about anything. My point was that believers have a set of things that they are concerned about that non-believers are not. If their faith is misplaced, this concern is a waste of energy and can be seen as a loss that they endure thereby falsifying your statement that you lose nothing in believing in a god that does not exist.
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