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Post by necroshine on Jan 13, 2005 18:01:02 GMT -5
First off I am loving this thread. This is fun, at least to me. now lets get on with this. Not in the same way. You will not let strange people you don’t know come around your child. Or even the people you don’t like. You will protect your child from the people you suspect are out to hurt you and your family. God on the other had has this monster running around and tempting us and doing everything he can to bring us to hell. is this correct to you? Now I ask why? Where is the protection? Why would god let the devil run loose? If god knows all the past, the present, and the future he knew that this “angle” would try to kill him and turn into the devil. Correct? If not then god isn’t all-knowing. Therefore he made the devil to be the way he is. There is no getting around this. God made all this. he made satan with a weak mind. He makes us to be the way we are. The blame is on his shoulders. He knows the future doesn’t he? he knew this was going to happen. So you can take something from god? That would seem like satan would have more power than god if he can take something away from god. Wouldn’t’ god have to give him what he wanted him to have? That would mean that god and satan is in league with each other and no opposed to each other. He allowed the devil to do it. therefore he is just as guilty as satan is. god knew that job would not turn on him so for this loyalty he let the devil rip his life apart. Is this ok to you? There is no need for tests if god knows all. You said nothing of why most of the people in the world will end up in hell. Plus this is a guess on your part. You don’t know its all based on faith nothing more. Just think about this for a moment. www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htmhere is a quick link of the census of the world religion. you see only one third is christen. most of the world will go to hell. but you say god loves us. But it would seem that he don’t love us enough to fix the problem that most people don’t believe in him. He hides instead of reconfirming his existence. Of course people in the bible believes in him he talked to them all the time but now he hides away. Why did he change his ways? But it would seem that you know just enough so you can keep your faith in place. But nothing more. Please read the bible and think about what it says. Your god can not exist in the way the bible describes him. What about the other people I have been married too. Did god send them to bring me down? To make a marriage fail? That is nice isn’t it? That is nice he is giving me something he isn’t giving someone else. Does he love me more? Does he hate poor people? Or people who live in poor countries? He loves America that is it. I’m sorry but your wrong there. He has and will. He has cursed all of us. Its in the bible. Please read the bible. I use to believe just like you do now. but I sat down and read the bible. I see many contradictions in it. look I will help you out. I want to help. www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/I go here a lot. It points out absurdities in the bible and the Koran plus the book of Mormon. But I guess you have never read the Koran either have you? Why should you? You haven’t even read the bible all the way through. How can you believe what a book tells you when you haven’t even read it all? what is the justification in that. home.cinci.rr.com/dancers/wmdbq/index.htmlHere is a quiz. It will show you some contradictions in the bible. Try to pass this test. And if you care why god can not exist the way the bible says he does go here. www.philosophersnet.com/games/whatisgod.htmthis might give you another way of thinking. I have fun talking to you about this. I hope you check out some of the links that I gave you. I want to hear what you have to say about them.
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 6:12:50 GMT -5
I don't have time to write a response here right now, but these are excellent questions being raised. Please, I direct you to an earlier post I made that dealt with some of this, in the thread "Dreams about hell"... Rather than trouble myself and you with clicking on a link, I'll just copy/paste here. If there are any complaints about that, I'll modify my post.
I was prompted to write because I feel as though the concepts of free will, heaven, hell, God's design for people, and the nature of God, are some of the deepest, most difficult (and personal!) things to contemplate when we approach the subject of religion in general. The conclusions one comes to about those concepts certainly have a lot to do in influencing how we act in life, and how we interpret the world around us. I think it's important to remember, be you theist or atheist, that each individual has a different understanding of these things. It is simply not possible for everyone to have identical beliefs with regards to these things; language itself fails to meet the demands of expressing the detailed differences common to all people in their beliefs. So, keep this in mind when you read a post you don't agree with, written by a theist. It is likely that his understanding of these crucial concepts is not representative of all theists. I keep the same in mind as I peruse these boards; I highly doubt all the atheists who frequent this website have entirely the same relationship with spirituality in general. I just have a few things I'd like to share about my own personal beliefs regarding the nature of hell and choice, for starters.
I think we have a somewhat perverted idea of punishment. Why do we punish in our society? I think we do so for two reasons: one, which I agree with, is to prevent people from perpetrating the same crime again--by locking them up, or compelling them to seek rehabilitation or therapy. THe other, which I believe is wrong, is to take revenge--to hurt people retributively. I don't see how this accomplishes anything, and I absolutely sympathize and agree with those who would find God's actions objectionable, were He to punish us in this way.
But here, I think, the concept of free will must be explored more deeply. I agree that we as humans are "programmed" to be predisposed to sin; in fact, if we had no upbringing, we would likely succumb to all those dispositions, and be pretty hard to live with. But the crux of the point is that these are simply predispositions--and we triumph over so many of them. The fact is, we have the ability to choose how to act, no matter how tempting one course of action or the other is. When we sin, we choose to sin; when we resist temptation, we also make a choice.
So, does God throw us into firey Hell for our poor choices? I don't think that's how it works. I personally only speculate about the afterlife; I don't see how it should change the way I see my actions in my life, the consequences of which are real enough to me. But I have certainly considered these concepts of heaven and hell, especially hell--God condemning most of mankind to damnation seems pretty callous to me, too.
No, I think, if there is a hell, that God does not choose it for us, but rather, we do. Imagine: if I lived my entire life by pushing down those around me so that I could be lifted up so much that I could never enjoy helping another, by stealing from anyone and everyone to increase my own gains so much that I could not know the joy of giving, by objectifying and lusting after women so that I would not want to love and cherish a woman as a human being, fostering jealous emotions inside myself so that I am consumed with envy and find no happiness in celebrating others' gains.... Would I really choose to live with God, from whom all those selfless joys that I wouldn't care for are derived? If God truly is the source of love, and being with Him is the experience of existing in love, then how could I appreciate being with Him after training myself, every day of my life, to pleasure only myself?
I think hell is a darkness of our own design. An analogy: turn away from the light, and you see only your own shadow. Turn towards the light, and the shadows disperse. God does not punish us, or send us to hell; if there is a hell, we choose it with every action that conditions us to be unappreciative of what God offers. He gives us exactly what we ask for. And when I consider the nature of hell, I think only of that which is absent of love, disconnected from God. I sure wouldn't want to live an eternity as the hypothetical "me" I described above. Would you?
Thanks for reading, if you're still with me. Take care, and I hope you have found something of worth in this post.
Kevin
As an addendum: sure, God created us with the ability and the fragility to be vulnerable to temptation and thus sin. But, we cannot blame him for our actions, because he also created us to have free will. Would it really be free will if we could not err? And would love have any meaning at all, if we were compelled to love? We decide to sin when we give in to temptation. We cannot blame God for our sins, because he does not compel us to sin. In fact, in a GREAT many ways, God calls us to avoid sin.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 13, 2005 8:32:58 GMT -5
It is god who says what sin is. It is god who made us this way. That is like me making a computer and screaming at it for crashing. (something we all do) we fix the computer and make it better. We just don’t put the monitor in the trash. We understand why it does what it does. We made it like that and we understand that we are to blame when it crashes and we fix it. God gave us freewill and then tells us most things we do are evil. Come on. Myself I find that stance that god takes a bit retarded. and frankly I can not understand how god can exist the way the bible describes him. An all knowing being giving us freewill and still knowing what we are going to do is by definition incompatible with each other. I’m sure you don’t see the conflict with it but it is there.
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 16:08:11 GMT -5
It is god who says what sin is. It is god who made us this way. That is like me making a computer and screaming at it for crashing. (something we all do) we fix the computer and make it better. We just don’t put the monitor in the trash. We understand why it does what it does. We made it like that and we understand that we are to blame when it crashes and we fix it. God gave us freewill and then tells us most things we do are evil. Come on. Myself I find that stance that god takes a bit retarded. and frankly I can not understand how god can exist the way the bible describes him. An all knowing being giving us freewill and still knowing what we are going to do is by definition incompatible with each other. I’m sure you don’t see the conflict with it but it is there. Interesting analogy. I think it doesn't account for our ability to freely choose, however. You point out another brain-twister in response to that weakness of your analogy--and assert that our choices are God's responsibility due to His omnipotent and omniscient nature. I absolutely see that conflict, and have spent a lot of time thinking about it. Here's how I understand it: The question can be nicely expressed this way: Can God create a rock He cannot lift? If He cannot lift it, then He is not omnipotent; if He cannot create something He cannot lift, then He is not omnipotent, right? Well, I think the answer lies in the quality of omnipotence. We are implying with the question that God is subject to our rationality and logical reasoning. You accept that God, if He is omnipotent, can break all the physical laws at will; so why would He be bound by our logic? Omnipotence by its very definition throws any arguments about its feasibility out the window. God can have His cake and eat it, too; He can know our every action and create us and understand intimately our thoughts, feelings, desires.... and yet allow us to make our own choices. All things are possible with omnipotence.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 13, 2005 17:42:58 GMT -5
But do you not see the very basic flaw in this? If god knows how I am going to die before I am born and he knows that I’m not going to believe in jesus or him. then he sends me to hell for not believing in jesus when I die. Where is the free will? I don’t believe that we have that much free will by the way. but this description of what god knows and our free will are incompatible with one another wouldn’t you say. You say it beyond our understanding. Well I’m not going to believe in something that doesn’t sound correct to me. it may be true but I will have to see proof of it before I put any stock into it. and the bible wants the opposite of me. believe without proof. Sorry can not do that. god should know this but yet I’m going to hell. I’m a good person for the most part. I have not killed anyone or molest a child or cheated on my wife. But yet I’m going to hell while a priest will go to heaven. Don’t you see something wrong with that? if it doesn’t make sense to you or it contradicts its self then you have to reject it. well at least I do.
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 17:47:54 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but if you read my reply closely, I think it makes a lot of sense. Omnipotence isn't beyond our understanding. It is just that you are unwilling to apply the full definition of omnipotence here. If you can postulate that an omnipotent being would be able to easily break the laws of physics... well, then can you explain to me exactly how that is accomplished? No, because you are not omnipotent or omniscient. You do not know all there is to know. So, logic is essentially another law, a conceptual one... and yet you object to the possibility that an omnipotent being could break logical laws, too.
This is concept of omnipotence is perfectly understandable. How does this not make sense to you?
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 17:50:36 GMT -5
But do you not see the very basic flaw in this? If god knows how I am going to die before I am born and he knows that I’m not going to believe in jesus or him. then he sends me to hell for not believing in jesus when I die. Where is the free will? I don’t believe that we have that much free will by the way. but this description of what god knows and our free will are incompatible with one another wouldn’t you say. Sorry.... just, read my earlier reply closer, please. It doesn't seem like you've grasped what I had to say.
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SSS
Seasoned Citizen
Love Boat Captain
Posts: 119
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Post by SSS on Mar 13, 2005 17:51:41 GMT -5
The point is Necroshine got his argument from the bible which was addressed to us humans. So it has to abide by our laws of logic so we can understand it or we've been screwed from the beginning.
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 23:56:17 GMT -5
The point is Necroshine got his argument from the bible which was addressed to us humans. So it has to abide by our laws of logic so we can understand it or we've been screwed from the beginning. The Bible is pretty consistent on humans' free will... Not sure what argument you are speaking of here. One ironic note I feel like making: I've never met more biblical literalists than there seem to be on this atheism board... kind of strange for me.
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SSS
Seasoned Citizen
Love Boat Captain
Posts: 119
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Post by SSS on Mar 14, 2005 0:22:07 GMT -5
The Bible is pretty consistent on humans' free will... Not sure what argument you are speaking of here. The argument is that the bible would have to be spelling out God's rules in human logic for us to understand completely. (Which it has obviously failed to do since we're having this conversation) It doesn't matter if God follows Super Logic. He's God. We can't ask him to clear things up. So people are being damned to hell because of only one crime (not believing in Jesus) as opposed to others who are totally horrible who mumble an apology on their death bed and get their slate wiped clean. Most of the theists I've met are too. Not strange at all.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Mar 14, 2005 14:30:00 GMT -5
Hey Necroshine.
(Just answering the first question)
Fist God is a loving God. Since he loves he disciples his children. This may seem simplistic but God is more than just a loving God. He is also a jealous God. How can God be jealous? Well he wants nothing before him. (Am just going to run some of the answers together) He is also a forgiving God. He will allow you to choose to raise Hell and if you figure out that your way isn't working and listen to God's Call then he will take you in and forgive you for those sins. Just because you are forgive doesn't mean you don’t face the consequences of your actions.
Heaven See you are trying to comprehend heaven. No man can do that. It is beyond our physical state right now. You won't know what Heaven will be like until you get there. The same is with hell. Still I plan on being happy.
Prayer. Pray isn't just asking for something. It is a conversation with god. Through pray you can understand things and why god has done something. Also if you don't ask you may not receive.
Peace
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Post by Christian on Mar 14, 2005 18:02:43 GMT -5
The argument is that the bible would have to be spelling out God's rules in human logic for us to understand completely. (Which it has obviously failed to do since we're having this conversation) It doesn't matter if God follows Super Logic. He's God. We can't ask him to clear things up. So people are being damned to hell because of only one crime (not believing in Jesus) as opposed to others who are totally horrible who mumble an apology on their death bed and get their slate wiped clean. Most of the theists I've met are too. Not strange at all. People who wish with all their hearts to be with God, will find Him. People who do not wish to find God, will not. I don't see the injustice here.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 15, 2005 6:27:33 GMT -5
There is an injustice when god makes a hell to send most of his creation. I know you say that as long as you live good and believe in any god then you will go to heaven. That is not what your bible says. You can twist it around all you want. Most people do. I have a question if you think that everyone will go to heaven that is just a good person regardless then I should go to heaven because I am a good person by your standards. I have not killed anyone, I have not done anything past taking a bag of chips that was not mine when a machine gave them to me. What would it take to go to hell? in your eyes why will not get into heaven? Will I go to hell? why?
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Post by Christian on Mar 15, 2005 17:49:00 GMT -5
There is an injustice when god makes a hell to send most of his creation. I know you say that as long as you live good and believe in any god then you will go to heaven. That is not what your bible says. You can twist it around all you want. Most people do. I have a question if you think that everyone will go to heaven that is just a good person regardless then I should go to heaven because I am a good person by your standards. I have not killed anyone, I have not done anything past taking a bag of chips that was not mine when a machine gave them to me. What would it take to go to hell? in your eyes why will not get into heaven? Will I go to hell? why? If you are positing a creator of everything, you cannot logically accuse that creator of everything of wrongdoing. And, I do not know what the afterlife has in store for any of us. Even if I had very detailed beliefs about the afterlife, I would not presume to judge anyone. My feelings, as they stand, are this: those who sincerely want to be with God, will find Him. Those who will not accept God, won't have to deal with accepting Him. I think we all get what we want, and this is a necessary component of free will. I know with absolute certainty which one of those options I want to choose for myself, however, and I make a very informed choice that has come from years of searching. Instead of asking, "why am I wrong under your beliefs," why don't you ask, "what is it about your beliefs that are satisfying to you?" I am curious--what fruits does the tree of atheism bear for you? And what is sweet about them to you? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 15, 2005 18:17:04 GMT -5
I wasn’t going to post today but I’m glad you asked. i find atheism better because it makes everyone find their own view of peace. It doesn’t sugar coat it with a sky fairy that is going to make everything ok. No one is telling me that I have to do this and that to be on daddy’s good side. I have to find the answers for myself. I have to think. The bible doesn’t want you to think for yourself. Regardless of how old the universe is, Man thinks it about 16 billion years old. do you miss the time you was not around for the 16 billion years before your birth? Then it will not bother you when you die and your not around for the next 16 billion years. Of course right now it might be in the back of your head but I gave up on that way of thinking. It does nothing but cause stress that I can not do anything about. I enjoy my time now instead of trying to get ready for an after life that I don’t know for sure is real. Most people don’t know what to do with the life they have now. why should they bother with one that will last forever? do you think you will have any better of an idea what to do when you have forever to do it? how boring is that. once you do everything a few million times over what is the point to keep going? Nothing new ever, you have done it all over and over. And you still have forever to do it again. I did not care when I was born. I do enjoy my life and I don’t want to die while my life is good and my health is up. But when my health goes and life becomes painful. Why continue? I will not care after I am dead. That is for sure.
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