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Post by necroshine on Feb 13, 2005 19:08:19 GMT -5
I was thinking about what god told to jesus before he came down to be killed by the jews. You know they had to talk to each other before it started. This was not in the bible but being as the bible is made up on the go, I thought I would put in my two cents.
I figure it would go something like this. Oh and keep in mind just to save time I wrote in as the first bible would have it. Then I translated it about 50 times. And this is what I got.
god was talking to jesus and said “look I am going to have to kill the people I made on earth.”
Jesus -but you have done that before and nothing changed.
God – but this time you are the one that is going to die.
Jesus – that sounds good but how am I going to die. I am omnipresent.
God – your not going to die you will just be down there for 30 or so years and then come back up here to me.
Jesus – and that will make everything they do ok with you?
God – no I will still send most of them to hell.
Jesus – then why am I going to die?
God – so I can forgive them.
Jesus – ok let me see if I got this right. You had to kill all the people in a flood but one family and that didn’t teach them anything and now you want to “kill” me, even though I can not die. So you can forgive the ones that think that I am the son of god.
God – yes that is right.
Jesus – what about the jews? They will not believe me.
God – who do you think is going to kill you?
Jesus – but are they not your chosen people?
God _ yes they are my chosen people. I choose them to kill you and now I can stop letting them get into heaven. They all will go to hell now. being as they did not straiten up when I flooded the earth.
Jesus – ok it sounds good to me now. I “die” so you can forgive everyone that does evil. And now you can start putting the jews back in hell where they belong. Lets get this done.
God - I’m glad you agree.
Jesus - but what if the people question why you changed the way you do things. You know you never change.
God- oh that is easy. I will just tell them not to question me. Besides with everything else I have done this one little change shouldn’t matter.
I don’t know where this should be put in the bible but I think it belongs in it. How else would that conversation go?
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Post by necroshine on Feb 15, 2005 6:42:58 GMT -5
come on! no one found this funny?  i would think some of you would be all over this. oh well each to there own. |
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Feb 15, 2005 13:33:08 GMT -5
come on! no one found this funny? i would think some of you would be all over this. oh well each to there own. humor with an agenda is like... sarcasm ;D |
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 16, 2005 1:06:10 GMT -5
Hey I thought it was kind of funny. Still I have a question why does this Christian god bother you? Do you feel like you were lied to
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Post by necroshine on Feb 17, 2005 6:00:57 GMT -5
Frankly, I was lied to.
I was brought up in a Christian family and everyont around me told me that I will go to heaven and god loves me.
I was lied to. if you believe this stuff you are lying to yourself. You have not one piece of evidence that god is real. But you have all kinds of evidence that points away from god. No, you can not disprove god but you can have more evidence that he is not here than you have that he is in control.
i'm past that in my life now. this is just for fun.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 17, 2005 15:12:51 GMT -5
So if God isn't real who made this world? If God isn't real why are humans what they are. Why are we so much different than animals. If God isn't real why in the world do so many people believe in some kind of higher being. Don't you think that the human body is a wonder in itself. We don't even fully understand our own brains. We don't know what is a the bottom most part of the ocean. I was watching TV on and this man's can was crushed by a 18 wheeler. It was flattened and the man walked out of it. Could you explain what that is. I was watching a medical special were this guy lost Half of his brain and still went to college. Man that is to Crazy to be luck. If you got an answer to explain away my examples then I am more than willing to hear. Just a side question what do you think about the devil how much info have you gotten on who he is? (Ooo guerrilla is talking about the devil more mumbo  jumbo) |
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Post by necroshine on Feb 17, 2005 18:39:13 GMT -5
As far as science has found out to be the most widely accepted proof is that a dust cloud collected and formed the sun and planets. We have seen this happen in space. What we have not seen is god making the planets and stars.
Evolution. We have more proof of evolution than god. We even mold and direct evolution in animals. Like dogs, pigeons, rats and others. We even change plants the way we want them. where do you think you get a strawberry as big as your fist? We did that not god.
We are not that different than animals. We just have different traits than animals. Some animals are much better than us at doing some things. true they can not build a computer but they have there own way to do things.
If this one god is the only god why has man made up many, many gods over our history? Why is there proof of gods that are older than the Christian god?
And what does that have to do with god? Our lack of understanding about something does not mean there is a god.
I don’t know what is a the bottom of an ocean so therefore god exists. Is that your proof of god? Because we don’t know something?
You must be kidding. Because someone did not die there must be a god. My lung collapsed a few years ago. I did not die. I was put in the hospital when I was in the 5 grade because of my bowels was clogged and I almost died, then a few years ago my wife and I hit a cow in my metro car. We should have died. But didn’t. none of this means there is a god. My dad is dying from parkinsons. Does this prove there is a god? People die every day from some of the most insane diseases. Flesh eating bacteria, Harding of the muscles, locked in syndrome. Is all this proof that god loves us?
I met a man in a mental hospital that thought he was jesus. Another guy was in there for trying to kill someone because his invisible friend told him to do so. yea god loves us all.
You can not just point to the good things in life and say “see god must be real” just like I can not point to the bad things and say that he is not real. But when you take everything it only points to how life works. Nothing more. We die for no reason and we survive times when we should die. None point to a god.
There is not devil. There is no god. What is your point to this question? I have gave you many examples of why I don’t think there is a god. Many examples of how we can be the way we are.
Tell me something if god loves us way did he tell us to kill each other? Why does he torture us in hell instead of just taking us out of existence? If he is never changing why did he change his mind in the bible?
Don’t bother answering the questions. I just threw them out. Please think about your view of god.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 19, 2005 0:07:07 GMT -5
Just to let you know I enjoy talking to you necroshine you are one of the most interesting people I know. (and I know a lot of interesting people)
All right this is going to be long winded
Well do you have to see it to believe it. You believe you have a brain am I not correct? You believe in air.
Evolution has it's holes. Scientics can only trace evolution through modern animals because it moves so slow. When scientist try to map evolution from the raptor to the robin it is call cladistics. Cladistics is a proposed series of eveolutionary change. They make assumptions on what evolution might have done to make the animals of today. You said that we change things like the strawerberry but I thing you are mixing that up with cultivation. We cultivate cows and strawberries. It is also gentic engeniring. We change these thing but we didn't create a new thing . Changing a strawberry isn't the same thing as creating a world. Still you haven't answered my question.
I would say we are much different than animals. Of course we have similarities because we come the same planet. Still what animal is on the intellectual level that humans are. I know that dolphins can work on a six year olds level but there is no animal that works on a thirty-five year olds level. They don't sit around and talk about philosophies or ethics. Everyting is if for servival.
Now I do believe that confusionism is about as old as Jewdism. But consfusionism doesn't have a God. That is if I remember that correctly. Why I was talking about the Jewish god is becasue I believe we have the same God. Still you haven't answered my question.
What I meant when brought up the human body was that scince we humans don't even understand our own bodies Then we obviously don't know everything. So if we don't know everyting then we can't rule out the possiblity of a God.
If you are asking me my opinion then I would say that you are most definally here for a reason. You are resellent and strong. In my opinion those situations happened so that you could learn from them. This is my opinion based on my beliefs. I still believe in God eventhough I have lost two uncles from AIDS.
If we die for no reason do we live for no reason? If I were an athist I would say that we died so that the earth wouldn't be crowed with so many people. What is a better reason than we die for no reason. Still I am not an athist and I have a different reason for why we die.
There is not devil. There is no god. What is your point to this question? I have gave you many examples of why I don’t think there is a god. Many examples of how we can be the way we are.
I know that on occastion he told us to kill each other but to answer your question correctly I need a specific time.
Why does he tortuer us in hell? Ok God gave us a choice to obey or to disobey. If you disobey then you sin. When you sin then you die. that was before jesus. Now we have a grace period because jesus died for our sins. So if we ask for forgiveness then god will accept you for what you are. But you must accept him for him to accept you.
God hands out justice and Grace. To be just god will Kill you for sinning, but if you accept him then he will hand you his grace. Even if you don't accept him he will hand out grace. (Like you being able to live with a collapsed lung.)
He doesn't take us out of existence becasue he wants to allow us to accept him. All choices have consiquences. Our world is an accumlation of peoples choices. We get ourselves into situations and god chooses to either give us grace or give us justice. In my opinion God is perfect and he can see the beginning and the end. He knows why we choose to do things and what happens when we choose them. So since he sees and knows everything he chooses to when to give grace and when to give justice.
Could you give me an example of when he changed his mind?
Hell was made for the devil but if we choose to reject god we can join him there.
(ps. they were too good not to answer)
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Post by necroshine on Feb 19, 2005 9:45:57 GMT -5
Don’t worry about being longwinded. I like to argue.
Yes. I have to directly see something or see the direct effects of some unseen force. Its like a black hole. No one has seen one but we know it is there by the effects it has on the matter around it. on the other hand I have not seen one piece of evidence that he is real. Not one. Plus if there was that would take away the faith issue and you not have to have faith you would know he is real.
That is the only place we are different. The things you point to and say that it is proof of god I can and will say no its not and will have a response to why it is not.
I know I have a brain I know a have a skeleton although I have never see it. I know the polar bear to be real although I have never seen one myself. I don’t have too see my brain to know I have one. We know for a fact that air is real. If it wasn’t your vacuum cleaner would not work. That is two different things and you can not make the statement of not seeing everything. True we do not see everything. But if it is real it will have a true effect and we can measure the force of it. we can not measure the effect of god. We do not see god putting the stars in the sky we don’t see god putting babies on earth but we do see them being born. But you can say god is there if you want. i can not.
Of course we don’t know everything. Just because we donlt have every piece of the puzzle does not mean that evolution is not real. The only way we could know every step of evolution is to have a sample of every animal that ever was. That is not going to happen. Therefore there is going to be holes in our knowledge. But that in no way makes evolution false. Just because we don’t know how the brain works does not mean that it does not work.
That is evolution working right there. Have you noticed that everything has legs and arms coming from the side and a head on top. All larger animals have the same blue print of how they are made. Only the very small animals have more than 4 legs. You get bigger than in insect all animals only have 4 legs. There is no such thing as a 8 legged dog. We all animals and humans have more in common than you think. Our brain is different than other animals that is the difference in us.
Your right. A monkey does not ponder the birth of a star. And a bird does not worry about what is in its bank account. Everything is for survival. And all the animals survive in its own way. You can not see the way a falcon can see. You are not as strong as a horse. You can not run as fast as a dog. None of them can think like we do. that is the difference. That does not mean there is a god. But it does point to evolution.
You have your stance and I have mine.
Hinduism is older than the Christian god. That is the oldest religion on the planet. Should that be the correct one? As far as your question goes. You asked why so many different people made a god for themselves. People use to think that objects stopped moving because they got tired. People use to think all kinds of odd things it doesn’t make it right. Mankind had thought up many gods because we want to put ourselves in the center of everything. That is something that religions have in common. Something like us made the world for us. And we have a better place to go after we die. Even if its right back here.
That is funny. (not because your stupid) but because you don’t understand how an atheist thinks.
I do think that we are born for no reason and we die with nothing accomplished. After I die and the people that know me die and the people that know them die, it will be like I never was here. This thought is not a bad thought to me. I would think that it might bother you, I hope it doesn’t. think about how many people has ever been born. Through the history of mankind. i do not know but lets just pull a number out of the air.
There are 4 billion people on earth right now. lets just say twice that has died. I do not know but for the sake of argument. How about 8 billion people has ever lived. I’m sure its more. Now how many people will be remembered by mankind? a few hundred thousand make up our history books. Its like the others was not here. Its true they had a hand in what we are as a civilization but we don’t know them and never will. Most people die with no purpose for being here. What abut a little black baby that was killed by a racist white guy. He was never charge with a murder and died without going to jail and the cops never looked into it. the baby never really was. It lived and died without a cause. True it brought happiness to the parents but that is all. the killing was senseless and everything about it is also. I’m not talking about one particular killing. I’m just pointing out why I believe the way I do. I know I will not leave a mark on the earth. I will not have any kids and I will not be remembered past the hand few of people that I know. I am fine with that. Most people that believe in god are not fine with that thought. They want to be remembered. And they want to go on. I’m just not going to lie to myself like that.
No you don’t have to have an instance of where god told us to kill each other. You know he did tell us this. I also know it. the fact that it is in the bible tells me that he does not love us. It flies in the fave of an all loving god. It should not matter the “reason” why god told us to kill one another. It only matters that this all loving god DID tell us to kill each other.
You do not die if you go to hell forever. that is not dying. That is being put in a place and being tortured forever. to die would mean you go out of existence. But you exist in hell. you are clearly not dead. Don’t tell me that the death is god not being around. God is everywhere. You can not be out of his presence. Not even in hell.
How is it being just for sending 2/3 of the world to hell? only one third is Christian. To be just he would take us at what and who we are not if we believe in him or not. how in the world is that just? God will look at me and say I don’t care what you think you did not believe in me and that is all he will base my judgment on. That is not just. It is like going for a job interview and getting the job if you are white. Not on who you are. God is not just. Never was never will be.
Once you are in hell it doesn’t matter. You can not be saved. You can not go to heaven. So my question still stands. Why not just make us not exist, instead of torturing us forever?
That is circular logic.
If god knows what we are going to do before we do it then you have no choice. I don’t’ want to get into this I know we differ on this point. But it is true. you can not make a choice different from what god knows, then you have not the ability to make up your own mind about what you are going to do.
Simple. Oh so simple.
He doesn’t accept sacrifices any more.
The jews doesn’t atomically get into heaven now.
There are two basic changes in god. You can argue all you want “why” it changed I don’t care. The changed happened. That flies in the face of an unchanging god.
Yes I’m having fun at this. glad you are also.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 20, 2005 15:37:18 GMT -5
Hi ;D
Well I could honestly say that I am positive that God exist so I still have faith. If God decided to show his form to me I would still have faith in him. It would just be a different kind of faith than what you are thinking of.
I believe in evolution but if we are taking about an ape to a human that requires some faith.( but I don't believe that).
Well if christians think that it is all about them then they are wrong. Christians are supposed to glorify god not themselves. Some other religoins might be like that.
You are right I don't know what a atheist would think.
See this whole heaven hell thing isn't negotiable.After the judgement if you choose to reject god He isn't going to just do what you want him to do . You are right when get to hell there is no coming back. That is the consiquence for rejecting god. That is what christians believe.
Your life will affect people even after you are dead. You have already affected my life. If you can vote you may vote on something that would change the society around you. The ones who were changed the world were taught and influnced by the people around but those people were not mentioned in the history books. I am fine with having a positive affect on someone.
[quoteNo you don’t have to have an instance of where god told us to kill each other.][/quote]
It does matter because some poeple have done turly inhuman things. God just doesn't kill people for kicks.
You have to ask yourself what justice is in God's terms not your's. If you don't know the nature of God you probably wouldn't understand why it is just in his terms.
where are you getting your numbers from?
just because god knows what is going on doesn't mean that he is controlling every move we make. You probably know the end of a movie that doesn't mean that you controled how the story went.
we don't have to sacrifice anymore becasue Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Everytime someone who has accepted jesus sins his death covers it.
The jews never got in heaven automaticlly. God choose them as an example to the rest of the world. You get to see what happens when you are out of god's will and in god's will.
so very gald that you are having fun too. I hope you have or had a great day.
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Post by solidsquid on Feb 20, 2005 16:06:07 GMT -5
I was watching a medical special were this guy lost Half of his brain and still went to college. Man that is to Crazy to be luck. It's called neuroplasticity...no god needed. |
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 21, 2005 1:23:15 GMT -5
you may like this website becasue it isn't tilted towards christians but it does discuss christ. ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/neuroplasticity explain why no God is needed? let the knife slip and there goes everying. It wasn't luck. Knowledge and God I my opinion. |
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Post by solidsquid on Feb 21, 2005 15:59:49 GMT -5
you may like this website becasue it isn't tilted towards christians but it does discuss christ. ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/neuroplasticity explain why no God is needed? let the knife slip and there goes everying. It wasn't luck. Knowledge and God I my opinion. Neuroplasticity is the ability of the brain to make use of other areas when there is a lesion or ablation that damages other parts. It has limitations though, you can't lose an entire hemisphere and hope to function normally. There is nothing supernatural about that, basic neurophysiology. |
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Post by necroshine on Feb 21, 2005 19:36:34 GMT -5
You do know that man did not come from the apes. But more of the apes we have now is a different branch of evolution than man but we have a common ancestor. But us and the apes took two different paths. We did not come from apes and apes did not come from us but we both came from the same thing in the past.
Now I will ask this. if you believe in god. Why do you not believe that evolution is false? Either man was made the way we are now or we came from a lower life form. You can not have it both ways. Please stop trying to walk a fence.
I thought that is why you was here. Is it not to understand why we think the way we do. here is what I think. And it is the most basic way I can explain why I think what I do.
Do you believe in allah? How about zuse? Do you even believe in voodoo? How about the Indians happy hunting ground? You are an atheist towards the gods I just listed. The only difference is I believe in one less god than you do. there are many, many gods out there to pick from. If one doesn’t send you to hell the other one will. I just choose to not believe in any gods.
I know you said that you know god exists. If you would be truthful with yourself and with us you would say that you don’t know but feel that he is real. I use to believe also. But I was honest with myself and now I do not make any difference between any god. They all are fals. Way too many of them for any to be real. Plus if a truly just god is real he will understand my stance on this and not torture me forever. if god is not just I will be in hell with most people on the earth.
Do you think if is just to put everyone to death that kills someone? I mean it is a bad thing to do to kill someone. What if we made a law that said if you kill someone you will die also. Is this a just view in your eyes?
Or should we take each case for what it is. Look into each and every case and try to understand what happened and why it happened. You know just like I do that some times you have to defend yourself. Its not always a bad thing to kill someone. But if we just start killing everyone that took someones life, we would put a lot of innocent people to death. You can not have one rule that covers everything. Life is not that easy. God can not say believe in me or die. There are many reasons why someone would not believe. God is not just if he is doing this.
A simple search will tell you this. go to google and see for yourself.
Search for the “ census of world religions” then take the numbers of who isn’t a Christian and look how many people will be going to hell. then think about how many people that has already died that is in hell. only because they didn’t believe in the correct god.
I have gotten tired to pointing out something to people who say this. I know I should not but it amazes me how someone can say 2 + 2 = 6. now this is going to be long but it is something I have posted before. I wish I could find the link to it but I can not. but I do have it on my computer. So I will just copy and paste it here.
I was thinking about the concept of god being everywhere, all the time. If we was made by a god then that is possible, if you think of it like this.
I play around in making cartoons in 3d. Inside of my creations I can be everywhere at any time. I can go forward it time and back in time of the cartoon. I created everyone in the cartoon; I also know what they are going to do. But here is the thing; even if I could write a program where the people inside my cartoon had a choice of what they wanted to do I still have complete control over what they do in the finished product. If they were to do something I didn’t like I just go back in time and change it. That would make the program of free will useless. Both ideas clash when brought together like that. I made the cartoon for a reason. It has to play out the way I want it to. If not then it was just an experiment of mine. That I let run how ever it wanted to. But then I have no right to say what goes on in my cartoon if I let the program of freewill continue to run. And it would be very stupid of me to punish my cartoon people for doing something I didn’t like. What would be the point to fill a recycle bin with fire and throw my cartoon people into it forever just because they didn’t do what I wanted when I gave them the program of freewill. I can’t have it both ways. I either make the cartoon the way I see fit or I let the people in the cartoon do as they please
I hope that didn’t bore you too much. But it is the way I feel about having freewill and a god.
I’ll go now I hope I gave you something to think about. this is the way I think and how I feel about god. I use to believe in jesus and god. But not now. the concept of god is not useful to me any more.
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Feb 22, 2005 12:30:19 GMT -5
The only difference is I believe in one less god than you do. That is a great statement. I'm going to have to remember that thought and apply it to good use. |
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jumbo)