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Post by william on May 1, 2005 23:51:35 GMT -5
Very few theists I have met have investigated their beliefs. Most believe in what they believe because of indoctrination from an early age. There are many firm christians I have met both online and in person that are ignorent to what their own bible says. They have not bothered research or in some cases been put off researching their religion. What is this evidence? Go on convince me ;D Iestyn i type with 2 fingers, how about i recomend a couple of good books. I agree that many Christians are ignorant. are you under the impression that all atheists are brilliant? there are ignorant people in both camps. It is sad that so many Christians dont know their Bibles.
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Iestyn
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 28
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Post by Iestyn on May 2, 2005 4:38:42 GMT -5
Ok, that would be useful. But could you do a brief summary of why you believe please? What proof dou you find most convincing?
True, but I have found that many theists that were ignorant of their belief who decided to research their belief and its relationship to science, history and their morality seem to become atheists or more commonily deists. There are atheists that never believed who have little knowladge of religious beliefs but reject it because the idea of god(s) seems unreasonable. This was once me but I decided to research the subject and found the theistic viewpoint even weaker. I have even encountered people that claimed to be atheist who were in fact theists angry with their god; something fudies like to claim for all atheists.
Iestyn
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on May 2, 2005 10:08:37 GMT -5
The following is a verbatim reply regarding an attempt to "communicate" with a Christian; "There is no need trying to engage in debate, because the arguement would be on two entirely different planes --within divergent spheres."
In other words, if we can't see eye-to-eye what's the point? I'm thinking the answer to the title of this thread is "no," not if you expect to get anywhere. Or maybe "don't waste my time trying, you will fail."
It's exemplary of the strength of belief in an individual's mind. We make our own reality. There's no possibility of seeing eye-to-eye. It would be immpossible to shake their reality to reflect ours, or vice-versa. This isn't bad or good... it just is.
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Post by william on May 3, 2005 3:45:10 GMT -5
Ok, that would be useful. But could you do a brief summary of why you believe please? What proof dou you find most convincing? True, but I have found that many theists that were ignorant of their belief who decided to research their belief and its relationship to science, history and their morality seem to become atheists or more commonily deists. There are atheists that never believed who have little knowladge of religious beliefs but reject it because the idea of god(s) seems unreasonable. This was once me but I decided to research the subject and found the theistic viewpoint even weaker. I have even encountered people that claimed to be atheist who were in fact theists angry with their god; something fudies like to claim for all atheists. Iestyn Ok in a nut shell, 12 steps of AA leads me to contemplate, history of AA convinces me that if millions of people have used these 12 steps and stayed sober, there might be something to it. still doubting that if there is a God He would help me. had profound event confirm that not only was there a God but that He was asurring me of a new life(wich came true)*. began reading the Bible(principles of 12 step are Biblical)looked into many Idiologys. now am Christian *cant fit story in a nut shell. thats me personaly but millions of others have had similar results. prophesys that are fulfilled from the Bible. life itself on this planet. Isreal prophesys.
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Post by william on May 3, 2005 3:48:16 GMT -5
The following is a verbatim reply regarding an attempt to "communicate" with a Christian; "There is no need trying to engage in debate, because the arguement would be on two entirely different planes --within divergent spheres." In other words, if we can't see eye-to-eye what's the point? I'm thinking the answer to the title of this thread is "no," not if you expect to get anywhere. Or maybe "don't waste my time trying, you will fail." It's exemplary of the strength of belief in an individual's mind. We make our own reality. There's no possibility of seeing eye-to-eye. It would be immpossible to shake their reality to reflect ours, or vice-versa. This isn't bad or good... it just is. but GAU ,I have enjoyed our attempts.
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Sandy
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 37
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Post by Sandy on May 3, 2005 6:06:12 GMT -5
Are you ready for the Rapture? Here is a link to tons of information to help all Christians get through their last days. www.raptureready.com/Remember folks, our government is run by these fools! Let's vote out the House of Representatives in 2006 before they bring on the end of the world. They seem eager to do this and it makes me uncomfortable!
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on May 3, 2005 9:11:41 GMT -5
but GAU ,I have enjoyed our attempts. You bet. Keep trying. It's a lot of fun to debate. We may never get anywhere, but we will be more well informed for the effort. As long as we keep ultimate expectations low, and spirits high, how can we lose? Cheers
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Iestyn
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 28
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Post by Iestyn on May 3, 2005 12:02:17 GMT -5
I agree, and this is what I was getting at with my initial posts. Theist and atheist exist in different preceived realities but which is the most correct? Science offers little help in this question as it cannot address the supernatural. This is why I never debate deists about their belief in a creator as it is truly impossible to come to a conclusion. Some branches of theism can be debated as they make testable claims such as the global flood of Noah. This is a subjective evidence so I can't really comment but I would disagree that it is an outside source that is stopping you drinking prehaps you should give yourself a bit more credit. By the way thanks for bringing the spiritual nature of the 12 step program of the AA to my attention- I had no idea I have found that the claimed propheses of the bible to be lacking. When it comes to life on earth I would bet on a natural explination not supernatural. In all cases a natural explaination has disproven a supernatural explanation in a range of phenomina from the causes of disease to the weather. The generation of life from early chemistry (abiogenisis) is a young science but is making strides. Iestyn
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on May 3, 2005 13:06:52 GMT -5
I agree, and this is what I was getting at with my initial posts. Theist and atheist exist in different preceived realities but which is the most correct? Science offers little help in this question as it cannot address the supernatural. This is why I never debate deists about their belief in a creator as it is truly impossible to come to a conclusion. Some branches of theism can be debated as they make testable claims such as the global flood of Noah. IVJ, you probably said this in a different form, but here’s another take; interestingly enough, if you look into quantum physics, deists and non-believers are both right. According to quantum theory, we create our own reality through our thoughts and perceptions, and everything is, at the quantum level, connected to everything else. If one’s reality includes an all-powerful God, then for them, it does. We can’t alter their perception of reality to match ours because you’re looking at two radically different things. Also, there's an accounting for the supernatural in quantum theory as well. If thoughts can manifest in our reality as more than mere mind-images, it’s possible they can be perceived outside one’s own head. Check out www.noetic.org/ for more nutty info. As for testable claims, most of those are based on stories, true or false, that symbolize a point. You can symbolize a trip to the liquor store if you see a homeless guy on the way (who may ironically be an alcoholic) or fund an Australian mob by buying their crappy wine. There’s no accounting for perception. It is the individual who makes their world.
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Post by william on May 4, 2005 3:37:03 GMT -5
Are you ready for the Rapture? Here is a link to tons of information to help all Christians get through their last days. www.raptureready.com/Remember folks, our government is run by these fools! Let's vote out the House of Representatives in 2006 before they bring on the end of the world. They seem eager to do this and it makes me uncomfortable! Im a post or mid tribber,but thanks for the info.
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Post by william on May 4, 2005 3:50:40 GMT -5
IVJ, you probably said this in a different form, but here’s another take; interestingly enough, if you look into quantum physics, deists and non-believers are both right. According to quantum theory, we create our own reality through our thoughts and perceptions, and everything is, at the quantum level, connected to everything else. If one’s reality includes an all-powerful God, then for them, it does. We can’t alter their perception of reality to match ours because you’re looking at two radically different things. Also, there's an accounting for the supernatural in quantum theory as well. If thoughts can manifest in our reality as more than mere mind-images, it’s possible they can be perceived outside one’s own head. Check out www.noetic.org/ for more nutty info. As for testable claims, most of those are based on stories, true or false, that symbolize a point. You can symbolize a trip to the liquor store if you see a homeless guy on the way (who may ironically be an alcoholic) or fund an Australian mob by buying their crappy wine. There’s no accounting for perception. It is the individual who makes their world. why bend the spoon, when you can be the spoon! so that whole name it and claim it crowd is onto something? theres hagendas in my freeser theres hagendas in my freeser........damb I must have doubted as I opened the door!
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on May 4, 2005 9:56:29 GMT -5
why bend the spoon, when you can be the spoon! so that whole name it and claim it crowd is onto something? theres hagendas in my freeser theres hagendas in my freeser........damb I must have doubted as I opened the door! Thanks William for the beautiful and pertinent illustration! You just correlated faith/spirituality/new-ageism with a succinct trip to an empty freezer. If you follow my posts, you’ll see (and I agree) that I’m all over the place. Anyone who thinks they have the ultimate answer is deluding themselves. Anyone who stops looking for answers might as well pack a lunch. But there’s nothing wrong with deluding one’s self, if it helps one through the day.
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Post by william on May 4, 2005 14:55:03 GMT -5
Thanks William for the beautiful and pertinent illustration! You just correlated faith/spirituality/new-ageism with a succinct trip to an empty freezer. If you follow my posts, you’ll see (and I agree) that I’m all over the place. Anyone who thinks they have the ultimate answer is deluding themselves. Anyone who stops looking for answers might as well pack a lunch. But there’s nothing wrong with deluding one’s self, if it helps one through the day. if that came out like I was mocking you ,Im very sorry! that was not my intention, it was more a statment about my inability to grasp those perticular concepts.
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Post by solidsquid on May 4, 2005 15:11:04 GMT -5
IVJ, you probably said this in a different form, but here’s another take; interestingly enough, if you look into quantum physics, deists and non-believers are both right. According to quantum theory, we create our own reality through our thoughts and perceptions, and everything is, at the quantum level, connected to everything else. If one’s reality includes an all-powerful God, then for them, it does. We can’t alter their perception of reality to match ours because you’re looking at two radically different things. Also, there's an accounting for the supernatural in quantum theory as well. If thoughts can manifest in our reality as more than mere mind-images, it’s possible they can be perceived outside one’s own head. Check out www.noetic.org/ for more nutty info. As for testable claims, most of those are based on stories, true or false, that symbolize a point. You can symbolize a trip to the liquor store if you see a homeless guy on the way (who may ironically be an alcoholic) or fund an Australian mob by buying their crappy wine. There’s no accounting for perception. It is the individual who makes their world. Are you speaking about the whole quantum entanglement thing? And mixing it with perception?
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on May 4, 2005 16:42:39 GMT -5
if that came out like I was mocking you ,Im very sorry! that was not my intention, it was more a statment about my inability to grasp those perticular concepts. No worries. You may understand more than you realize. There’s a few related links below. Peace Are you speaking about the whole quantum entanglement thing? And mixing it with perception? Quantum theory claims there’s essentially no difference between perception and reality, matter and thought. Thought can literally influence the exterior world because it’s all equal at the quantum level. Consciousness is elevated to a tangible substance that transcends our view of our own perception; like time travel or actual deja-vu. (Any reference to “The Matrix” is purely coincidental). Here’s a good starting point: www.whatthebleep.com/Study guide: www.bleepspace.com/download/WTBstudyGuide.pdfSome more stuff: www.noetic.org/I keep this stuff in an open file with most other theories, beliefs, and UFOs. The one belief (or faith, if you will) that I admit adherence to is that, in time, the truth will shake out. And I think that ultimately it’s going to be beyond fantastic.
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