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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Feb 2, 2006 15:30:36 GMT -5
Vertigo is correct here. From the time of Thomas Aquinas up to now, the Catholic Church along with all its other little fractured children have been trying to cope with both the facts found by Science, and the truths found by Philosophy (Philosophy of course a study with Reason and Logic as its first and core principles). Unfortunitly the modern community has given a foot hold to the Churches in that they want to belive in Facts, and hold Reason dear, while at the same time cling to their Gods. You see a thing that is not dependent on Reason is by deffinition Unreasonable. The idea of God therefore is Unreasonable. Since the existence of God is unreasonable, to state that you hold Reason to be great and true yet you also hold God to be true. You are stateing a Contradiction. And as we all know a contradiction cannot exist. You can either state that a God is true or that reason is true you cant stand on the sidelines.
ps one more thing: I would not suggest useing Aquinas's approch here you will surely be shot down.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 5, 2006 12:11:30 GMT -5
Science doesn't debunk God. I see science as an explanation to how God does things. Philosophy Doesn't Debunk God because in some ways it is just someones opinion.
I guess all I am trying to say is that those who believe have not resigned themselves to be inferior because they have chosen to believe in a God.
What is wrong about coupling reason and logic with the belief in God? As a living human being one always uses logic and reason. So it would be obvious that they use it when it comes to believing in God.
Dragon*of*Heaven your long explanation of what you see about the catholic church is kind of right. Christian's truth should come from God. The moment anything became more dear to a believer than God does then s/he is moving in the wrong direction. That is why so many Americans who say they are Christians are a bad example of what God can do in someones life
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Post by vertigo on Feb 5, 2006 12:50:30 GMT -5
It debunks the relevance of God, which is functionally the same thing.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 6, 2006 1:07:19 GMT -5
How does philosophy debunk God?
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Post by vertigo on Feb 6, 2006 7:45:09 GMT -5
Does God command good because it is good or is good good because God commands it?
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Feb 6, 2006 9:24:55 GMT -5
I like that we are now getting some where. Ok I have given sufficient evidence for currently giveing some proof to my argument your statement above dose nothing to disprove what I have said. Just becuase you want it to be true dose not mean that it is.
I am sure that Vertigo would agree with a Beliver being Inferior to a non beliver, however this is not what I think nor is it my point. Fundamentaly everyone with capability of thought is equal. It is the thoughts that we have that make us equal or not. Fundamentaly a person who chooses ignorance is equal to me. That is he is equal in importance. However on the level of thought he is indeed lower. Please give some reasons to back up your claim.
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Post by vertigo on Feb 6, 2006 12:40:39 GMT -5
The believer is inferior, and if they stop believing they will become superior.
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The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Feb 6, 2006 20:39:59 GMT -5
That is awfuly arrogant of you
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Post by vertigo on Feb 6, 2006 21:56:50 GMT -5
What makes it arrogant?
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The Reservoir Dog
Seasoned Citizen
I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with em' later.
Posts: 136
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Post by The Reservoir Dog on Feb 6, 2006 22:05:29 GMT -5
making yourself better because of your beliefs is no better than the worst of them
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Feb 7, 2006 8:36:48 GMT -5
I dont know if I agree with you Reservoir Dog I for one would rather have 5 atheist or agnostics than 10 theists. At the least I wouldk now that the atheist think. I suppose I am not sure here I need to go think on it, but truely is it not a persons thoughts that make them better?
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Post by vertigo on Feb 7, 2006 12:27:12 GMT -5
Things are not all arbitrary. Atheism is more honest than theism and honesty is virtuous.
There's a difference between whether people should be criticised and whether they deserve criticism.
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Post by Mistwalker on Feb 8, 2006 4:07:08 GMT -5
"Superior" is completely subjective. If you suppose having beliefs based more in reality makes someone "superior", then they are, but only by that limited definition.
There are atheists I've met who are completely disgusting individuals, and there are christians I've met that are kind, caring, and intelligent. I think in the latter case, the reason they keep their religion is their ability to compartmentalize their logic and religious beliefs. There are theists who seem completely able to apply logic to everything except their religion.
Also, "Atheism is more honest than theism and honesty is virtuous" is a strange comment. I don't believe theists are dishonest in their beliefs. I think they believe them to be true. Also that's a completely arbitrary moral choice you've made, to decide that honesty is virtuous. Humans lie all the time, and many times it's far better to lie than to tell the truth.
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Post by vertigo on Feb 8, 2006 8:48:14 GMT -5
Morals aren't arbitrary! Until you relativists understand that, I have nothing to say.
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GodsAreUs
Seasoned Citizen
If you fail to question anything, you may be had by everything.
Posts: 215
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Post by GodsAreUs on Feb 8, 2006 11:05:19 GMT -5
I agree with Mistwalker. Who are we to assume what lies in the heart of a theist? To them, their belief is quite moral and virtuous indeed. Because we don’t agree with them does not necessarily make them any worse as a person.
Also, if one is not a relativist, one is an absolutist. Absolutism is the height of arrogance… in that what lies in ones own mind is deemed by the self as “truth,” thus rendering any opposing opinions “false” regardless of their inherent veracity. Christians and Muslims are absolutists. Any atheist that believes in absolutes is no better off. They just happen to sit on the other side of the ideological fence, with the same lack of capacity for empathy in those they disagree with.
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