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Post by vertigo on Dec 27, 2005 19:13:02 GMT -5
Eugen, if you haven't yet, have a look around the forums at what Pilgrim has had to say, you'll see his dishonesty. He has no good intention, I'm afraid.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Dec 28, 2005 1:45:33 GMT -5
Even though I agree that pilgim is probably on this forum to jerk our chain I am here to ask and answer questions that people ask. I would consider my self a very poor person if I let just one or two agrivateing people keep me from attempting to show the light of reason.
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Post by vertigo on Dec 28, 2005 7:43:06 GMT -5
Dragon, I have always maintained one should form one's own opinion. Your opinion is wrong but I don't mind that you have formed it.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Dec 31, 2005 2:01:18 GMT -5
Alright Vertigo then if you think that I am so wrong, why on earth do you even speak here? If you believe that no one can change once they are religious, and that no Reasonable discussion can help why do you post at all? I don't mean this as an accusation I am simply confused. To tell the truth I actually think you are a rather interesting fellow.
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Post by vertigo on Dec 31, 2005 9:13:25 GMT -5
Dragon, I am here to denounce religion of any form. I am here because I think some atheists have a misconception that religion is salvable, that in some form religion is good. I also see some atheists trying to talk theists out of it. That won't work.
Reasoned arguments don't convert people but perhaps a role-model will. I don't think I'm a role model but if I can influence atheists positively perhaps they might be good role models. I want atheists to be such that theists say "Gee, if God would send this good person to hell he isn't worth worshipping". Perhaps I am deluded about this but it has more chance than presenting rational arguments.
You might say I stand more chance of alienating theists that winning them over. Both of those alternatives are good. I am more than prepared to show theists one who does not need nor want God and who gets along just fine besides. I want it to hurt them, to make them feel insignificant. I want them to cling to their God-hope for security. I want them to squirm. And then hopefully the impossible will happen and they'll cross over. Hey, it might work.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jan 19, 2006 15:53:55 GMT -5
Ok I understand where you are coming from now. I too don't think that Religion is a very good thing but Thats why I am trying so hard to disprove it with a rational argument (or at least show an alternative). I suppose that I am just a little more wishy washy than you in the fact that I am trying to get people to move on their minds accord. Its true pain is one of the best teachers but still if I get one person to change for his own reasoning then I suppose I am happy. Sorry by the way for how my previous statement sounded.
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Post by vertigo on Jan 19, 2006 19:09:38 GMT -5
Please don't be sorry. Speaking one's mind is good, it means you are prepared to stand by what you think. If everybody said what they truly believed, the world would be a far better place. Honesty is good.
I don't mind if you want to present atheistic arguments. If you think it will work, by all means do it. You'll certainly come to know more about theists by doing that.
Eventually you start reading between the lines. You won't hear what people say anymore, you'll hear what they mean, you'll know why they are saying they are saying.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 31, 2006 4:06:53 GMT -5
I have read this entire discussion. I must say that was very interesting.
I going to have to agree with Vertigo that atheism is not a religion. You need a set of beliefs just one belief to make it a religion. Christianity has one central belief with other rules supporting it. Atheism in my opinion is individualistic so it can't be a religion unless you all get together and start making up rules. Which I doubt you will do.
Vertigo If you want to denounce religion why don't you go onto religious sites and denounce them there. I see that you obviously have some people here who think that athism is a religion, but wouldn't you focus more on other religious sites and groups?
Also, why would you want me to hurt. Right now I would have to say I am very happy and blessed. So if you really wanted to turn me into and Atheist you would have to show me something spectacular ( and I am not playing). Also why do you need me to be an Atheist. If I am like what you all say that I am living my life in ignorance why does it matter that I believe or not?
Also because I am curious what do read in between my lines? ;D
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 31, 2006 4:19:22 GMT -5
Oh I wanted to say something else. Religion can be a very dangerous thing. Some of you are right it can allow you to stop thinking and just be led by the nose. You have to know what and why you believe.
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Post by vertigo on Jan 31, 2006 6:36:56 GMT -5
Guerrillasaint, this is a change. Do you see that the reason it allows people to be led by the nose is because it provides an external morality that can be manipulated? People can twist it to say that God wants you to do almost anything (including killing abortion doctors, etc). The problem is the external morality and that's why all religion is bad. This is a central tenet of atheism.
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Post by Dragon*of*Heaven on Jan 31, 2006 13:17:51 GMT -5
I agree with vertigo. A religious morality also maintains that every one must bend to the same rules, this is conformity. Man is not meant to do this. You should just decide what is better for your self.
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Post by guerrillasaint on Jan 31, 2006 14:03:51 GMT -5
Yes I see that religion can be bent and twisted to make those who don't know where they stand, or don't want to think to move in a certain direction. Still you can say that about other things as well. That is the nature of some people. They want to be on top and want to control others. So they use whatever means necessary to get to get what they want.
I would beg to differ about men not meant to conform. We tend to do it naturaly and it is a kind of safety net. Why would so many clubs and groups as well and religions be around. We like to categorize ourselves and collect in groups of people who have similar Ideologies. If you have ever signed a contract then you have conformed to what is outlined in that agreement. Every now and then someone steps out of the boundaries of some kind of conformity, but I would still say they conform to other things in there life.
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Post by vertigo on Jan 31, 2006 14:23:02 GMT -5
How do you know where you stand?
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Post by guerrillasaint on Feb 1, 2006 23:35:00 GMT -5
My bond with my God tells me were I stand.
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Post by vertigo on Feb 2, 2006 7:19:26 GMT -5
Tell me about those who "don't want to think", how can thinking lead to knowing God?
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