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Post by Unknownforce on Dec 5, 2004 0:03:17 GMT -5
Are the 10 commandments really a message from god? I also heard that god himself carved the message into the stone himself. I keep hearing that the 10 commandments is proof of god as well as the prophices in the bible. I also heard someone claim that over 450 prophices fulfullied. I also want to know why god would want to punish us for being imperfect if he made us imperfect. Could god really punish people for comming to the conclusion that he doesn't exist? (If we have free will how come we can't choose not to believe without any consequences?)
As you may notice I have heard a lot of things and done a little research(but not enough I guess). I am really confused on whether to believe or not. I use to feel so strongly that god existed and now i'm having doubts. The more I know the more I begin to doubt. In my personal opinion I'm comming to the conclusion that I could not believe in a being who rewards and punshing his creation eternaly and still carry the title of benevolent.
I would love to hear your side. I also believe that I shouldn't make a conclusion before I hear about both sides.
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Post by vertigo on Dec 5, 2004 1:26:02 GMT -5
It is important to realise that ignorance is not a good thing. It is good to be knowledgable. If it requires ignorance to believe in God then the belief is wrong, not the knowledge.
Compare God to a robber that points a gun at you and says "give me all your money or I'll kill you". Compare it to "worship me or go to hell". Why would a loving God be a robber?
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Post by AuntieSocial on Dec 5, 2004 7:52:35 GMT -5
Are the 10 commandments really a message from god? I also heard that god himself carved the message into the stone himself. People say all sorts of things, don't they? I keep hearing that the 10 commandments is proof of god as well as the prophices in the bible. I also heard someone claim that over 450 prophices fulfullied.[/quote] Many people will say that "this or that" is proof of God or fulfilled prophesy. With respect to the fulfilled prophesies, they fall into a few different categories: - Many of the prophesies that have supposedly come to pass were intended to happen in the time of the prophet. The supposed fulfillment, did not. (The only example I can think of, at the moment, is the Messiah)
- Several of the prophesies were orchestrated to be fulfilled (i.e. the re-building and order of construction of Jerusalem).
- Other prophesies were not fulfilled in any way that could possibly be related to the original (i.e. the birth of the Messiah. There is good reason why Jews don't consider Yeshua as their Messiah, he did not fulfill the requirements of a Jewish Messiah and the prophesy was very badly twisted by early Christians to force fulfillment.)
- Unfulfilled. There are many that should have been fulfilled by now, that haven't been. Apologists will point out those that have apparently been fulfilled and state that there is no reason to doubt that the others either were fulfilled (and we don't know about it?) or that they will be fulfilled in time.
There are others who have studied the prophesies in great depth. I have only taken a passing look at them, myself. I would say that these fulfillments are, at best, a stretch. This is why there is no such thing as free will in the Christian theology. If a parent told their teenager to be home by curfew, or the parent would place the child's hands on a hot burner for several hours, what would we thinks? [/li][li] 1 - there is no choice involved. The child must be home before curfew. [/li][li] 2 - this parent is a child abuser (even if they do not follow through with the action, the threat is enough to label them as such). This is the God-head of the Christian faith. This is the loving father whose only power is the fear that has been instilled in the adherants by parents, teachers and church elders. You raise some very good points of contrast in the defined attributes of the Christian god. Welcome to scepticism (and welcome to the board). The journey you are now embarking upon can be a wonderful eye-opener. Please don't stop at "hearing" both sides. Investigate what you are learning on your own, as well. I could tell you, "It is most rational and logical to shed your superstitions", but my telling you this is not reason enough for you to do so. If I was to do that, I would be no different than those who told you that you must believe, or perish in eternal damnation. That isn't to say that you can't ask questions, or for opinions. By all means, ask away.
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Post by Hilly on Dec 5, 2004 9:22:38 GMT -5
Your asking questions and that's wise. Just the fact alone that your having doubts about gods existence, is one reason not to believe. Would god have created this doubt in your mind if he did indeed exist? Theists will argue free will here, but your already seeing the fallacy in that line of thinking. For me belief always comes down to one thing. If there is a god/s, I require them/ him/her/it to show itself to me in a non-fallible way I will understand. I'm not holding my breath. To be fair there is a new idea within the theistic world, though small in its followers, and that's the idea of intelligent design. Basically the idea is a creator set the whole thing in motion, including evolution, and we can't know why or how but should still have faith in this creator and believe that it knows what's best concerning us. Many of these people have realised the stories, rules and teachings of the [insert any holy book/doctrine here] are nonsensical and not to be taken seriously. They see the illogic of it all, and also the discrimination and intolerance , religion can create in people. These people still believe in god but practice their faith in a way that is non intrusive and respectful to others. I hope man may eventually mature beyond the need for a god/religion, but for now, it would seem some people need it. Myself I am atheist and quite happy.
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Post by Unknownforce on Dec 5, 2004 12:26:35 GMT -5
Theists will argue free will here, but your already seeing the fallacy in that line of thinking. Qoute by Hilly
How would it even be possible for theist to defend free will here? Just asking cause to me it seems impossible. I would have to agree with your analogy.
I did a little more research today on the orgins of the bible and it seems really messy. Why would people think the bible is perfect without flaw when it was translated (in 3 diffirent langauges) and copy over 40 times without anything to correct their errors if any? Why didn't god himself write the bible? Why leave it to imperfect humans who seemed to have poisoned many minds in believing simple things such as women are inferior and homosexual should be stoned. Is this god ideal paradise for man or man ideal paradise for himself? An even more difficult question is would we be able to tell?
Just curious but what exactly is the strongest proof(if any) of god?
If you ask me it wasn't god who created man in his image but man who created god in their image.
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Post by Unknownforce on Dec 5, 2004 15:02:14 GMT -5
One last question if god didn't write the 10 commandments who did?
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Post by necroshine on Dec 5, 2004 15:57:49 GMT -5
Who ever wrote the bible. As no one can seem to even agree on who wrote what part of the bible, I can not imagine that anyone would take it serous in the first place. Little along hold it up to be absolute truth.
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Post by necroshine on Dec 5, 2004 16:02:38 GMT -5
Anything can be proof. ANYTHING that is what is wrong. Look at the baby kitten. God must exist. The biggest I hear from people is “how you feel in your heart” so they are saying I want him to exist therefore he does. I shake my head at that but what can you do?
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Post by vegan4truth on Dec 5, 2004 22:09:38 GMT -5
Warning: I'm going to jump around a bit here.
The bible is just hearsay. You're actually putting faith in the person/people who wrote it. You're taking their word for it. Don't you think that if there was a god, and he/she/it wanted to communicate with us, he would do it himself? Don't you think that he'd literally speak to each and everyone one of us, and tell us the same exact thing? Don't you think that there would only be one religion? Don't you think that we wouldn't have to rely on some imperfect "holy" book. that more or less disagrees with countless other "holy" books?
Xianity: Worship Jesus or go to hell.
Islam: Worship Jesus and go to hell.
It looks to me like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
god didn't write the 10 commandments, somebody who wanted to control the masses did. If there was somebody like Moses alive today, he'd be tried for war crimes, plain and simple. Then again, he'd probably be locked up in an asylum before he got too powerful. If you can actually believe that an all-loving god would command Moses and his followers to do those things, then I've got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
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Post by Unknownforce on Dec 5, 2004 23:37:12 GMT -5
It does seem that its actually impossible to decide which religion is right and which is wrong. But how was the 10 commandments written?(should of ask this before). If it was by man how did he do it? I've been searching for that on the internet but sadly no luck. I have been losing faith lately and I personal don't think any god(diffiently not a benevolent one) should have the right to punish his creation for not believing. Its begining to seem like logic and god cannot exist. What I once thought was solid proof is now a little wavy and feeble.
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Post by vegan4truth on Dec 6, 2004 19:00:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. If you're referring to carving it into stone, either it didn't happen and it's a fabrication, or someone carved it into stone. Not exactly a feat of magic there, especially considering some of the ancient Egyptian works of art. If you're referring to how they came up with the 10 commandments, then it was just someone who came up with a good way to control the masses.
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Post by solidsquid on Dec 6, 2004 23:47:08 GMT -5
10 commandments, Moses, talking with a god, etc. All this assumes that this actually took place. This is most likely not true.
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Post by Unknownforce on Dec 7, 2004 0:23:23 GMT -5
Wow. You know that you guys just stabbed every piece of evidence I once thought was proof of god. I guess I'm now converted into atheist.........Which by the way doesn't feel as bad as I once thought it would. I keep hearing good defenses for god but now it begining to sound more like excuse then an all powerful god.
If you're referring to carving it into stone, either it didn't happen and it's a fabrication, or someone carved it into stone. qoute
The reason I thought it was a work from god was because a priest told me that no science was able to identify how it was carved and plenty of my friends. They would laugh at me when I said that maybe it was possible for a human to do it.
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Post by solidsquid on Dec 7, 2004 0:28:36 GMT -5
Wow. You know that you guys just stabbed every piece of evidence I once thought was proof of god. I guess I'm now converted into atheist.........Which by the way doesn't feel as bad as I once thought it would. I keep hearing good defenses for god but now it begining to sound more like excuse then an all powerful god. Just continue to critically think and that will aid you greatly in the quest for knowledge. Religion tends to center upon faith which is just accepting something without any proof. It is hard, however, to go against what you are taught as being truth, what even your friends and family may hold as true. I know, I have been in that position.
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Post by Papsmearmycat on Dec 7, 2004 11:27:32 GMT -5
Sad to hear that because the possibility that a man carved into stone, you choose to completely abandon God. The Ten Commandments were desinged to "control the masses?" are you saying you would prefer an anarchy? I hate to say this, but most atheists i have met would be the first to go in an anarchy. NEWS FLASH: in an anarchy, the stronger guy survives, not the necessarily the smarter one. Just like in nature. There are some exceptions of course. All in all, if you truly believe in evolution, you should kill all handicapped people. Old people as well. Anyone born with any sort of disabliity should be killed. They are weakening the gene pool. Anyone who is not as far along the evolutionary line should be eradicated. If that is what you believe, all I have to say is heil Hitler.
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