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Post by necroshine on Feb 28, 2005 19:15:45 GMT -5
THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
That is worse. I’m sorry.
I knew one for 10 years before she died. Way ahead of you there.
If you can still go to hell when you do believe in jesus then why bother?
HELLO doesn’t mean any of that crap happened just because you say it does. I had this angle come down and unzipped my paints and I got the most wonderful feeling about me. I was even able to reach down and grab a tit. Hey why should your girl have all the fun?
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 5:59:30 GMT -5
I've just read a bit on this board, and thought I would add my two cents... I am a Christian, so I am not sure if my views are welcome here, but if it appears people don't want me to post, I'll delete my reply here. I was prompted to write because I feel as though the concepts of free will, heaven, hell, God's design for people, and the nature of God, are some of the deepest, most difficult (and personal!) things to contemplate when we approach the subject of religion in general. The conclusions one comes to about those concepts certainly have a lot to do in influencing how we act in life, and how we interpret the world around us. I think it's important to remember, be you theist or atheist, that each individual has a different understanding of these things. It is simply not possible for everyone to have identical beliefs with regards to these things; language itself fails to meet the demands of expressing the detailed differences common to all people in their beliefs. So, keep this in mind when you read a post you don't agree with, written by a theist. It is likely that his understanding of these crucial concepts is not representative of all theists. I keep the same in mind as I peruse these boards; I highly doubt all the atheists who frequent this website have entirely the same relationship with spirituality in general. I just have a few things I'd like to share about my own personal beliefs regarding the nature of hell and choice, for starters.
I think we have a somewhat perverted idea of punishment. Why do we punish in our society? I think we do so for two reasons: one, which I agree with, is to prevent people from perpetrating the same crime again--by locking them up, or compelling them to seek rehabilitation or therapy. THe other, which I believe is wrong, is to take revenge--to hurt people retributively. I don't see how this accomplishes anything, and I absolutely sympathize and agree with those who would find God's actions objectionable, were He to punish us in this way.
But here, I think, the concept of free will must be explored more deeply. I agree that we as humans are "programmed" to be predisposed to sin; in fact, if we had no upbringing, we would likely succumb to all those dispositions, and be pretty hard to live with. But the crux of the point is that these are simply predispositions--and we triumph over so many of them. The fact is, we have the ability to choose how to act, no matter how tempting one course of action or the other is. When we sin, we choose to sin; when we resist temptation, we also make a choice.
So, does God throw us into firey Hell for our poor choices? I don't think that's how it works. I personally only speculate about the afterlife; I don't see how it should change the way I see my actions in my life, the consequences of which are real enough to me. But I have certainly considered these concepts of heaven and hell, especially hell--God condemning most of mankind to damnation seems pretty callous to me, too.
No, I think, if there is a hell, that God does not choose it for us, but rather, we do. Imagine: if I lived my entire life by pushing down those around me so that I could be lifted up so much that I could never enjoy helping another, by stealing from anyone and everyone to increase my own gains so much that I could not know the joy of giving, by objectifying and lusting after women so that I would not want to love and cherish a woman as a human being, fostering jealous emotions inside myself so that I am consumed with envy and find no happiness in celebrating others' gains.... Would I really choose to live with God, from whom all those selfless joys that I wouldn't care for are derived? If God truly is the source of love, and being with Him is the experience of existing in love, then how could I appreciate being with Him after training myself, every day of my life, to pleasure only myself?
I think hell is a darkness of our own design. An analogy: turn away from the light, and you see only your own shadow. Turn towards the light, and the shadows disperse. God does not punish us, or send us to hell; if there is a hell, we choose it with every action that conditions us to be unappreciative of what God offers. He gives us exactly what we ask for. And when I consider the nature of hell, I think only of that which is absent of love, disconnected from God. I sure wouldn't want to live an eternity as the hypothetical "me" I described above. Would you?
Thanks for reading, if you're still with me. Take care, and I hope you have found something of worth in this post.
Kevin
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Post by necroshine on Mar 13, 2005 8:18:41 GMT -5
Hello Kevin, Welcome w do not ban people just for being a christen here. It’s the christen boards that ban us just for speaking our minds. Even in the smallest way it is not allowed. I think you are looking at heaven and hell in just one way. Let me try to show you how I view the subject of heaven and hell. I hope you will understand how I look at the subject.
God only puts us in hell for one reason. For not believing in jesus. That is the only reason he does it. If you look at the world population and what they report to believe you will only find about 1/3 christen. that means god is going to send most people to hell just for not believing in jesus. It doesn’t matter how many evil acts you do god will forgive you of them. but you will go to hell for not asking for forgiveness. If Gandhi is going to hell while a pick ax murderer (Carla Fay Tucker) or a child molester will go to heaven, where is the logic in this? hell is not for evil people. Its for people that don’t believe in jesus. You can not look at heaven and hell as for evil and good. It doesn’t work that way. God condemning most of the world for not believing in jesus is wrong to me.
Not so. first off we are sinners from birth. That is no choice. then our thoughts themselves are sinful. If I just look at a woman and think “I would like to have sex with her.” That is a sin. I haven’t done anything to the woman but just look at her. But yet the bible says I might as well rape her because in my heart I already have. Its just as sinful for me to think it as to do it. I can not control my thoughts to that kind of level. Can you? I am programmed to find people attractive and when I do find someone attractive then that is a sin. Why? I have no choice but to sin.
You are thinking that the evil people will go to hell. that is not the case. Good peace loving people who help out mankind will go to hell just for not believing in jesus. Hell is not made for evil people. Heaven is not made for good people. You at thinking about it wrong. Do you not think that Buddhists do good things around the world? Do you think that the Hindu faith is nothing but evil? Many good people will go to hell. if the bible is correct which I think it is not. how can it be? But that is my view on the subject.
Stick around for a little bit. We need some christens around to discus things with.
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SSS
Seasoned Citizen
Love Boat Captain
Posts: 119
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Post by SSS on Mar 13, 2005 8:21:36 GMT -5
I highly doubt the existence of free will myself. But I'm glad you're sharing your opinion. Welcome.
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Post by solidsquid on Mar 13, 2005 13:50:06 GMT -5
Why do we punish in our society? Basic idea learning of conditioning, pretty much the reasoning behind that on one aspect. But as you correctly pointed out there's also an emotional idea of revenge or as some see it "justice"...a sort of Old Testament "eye for an eye" type view. Some of what you said does have credence. We have, for lack of a better word, instincts which are our predispositions given to us by genetics. Now, we have a wonderful part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. It is our "higher reasoning" center (laymanistically speaking). And it isn't more of a free will than it might be a free won't. Benjamin Libet did some experiments which show this "free won't" instead of "free will" as more likely. However, choice is still involved, so many may see it as a needless semantics debate. The prefrontal mostly inhibits actions that the limbic system (emotional center) pushes us to do, to react more emtionally and instinctively. Now, how behaviors are seen across different cultures may not synch up and usually don't. Some things are seen across cultures and many label "universal". However, these can be explained by social formation of our hominid ancestors. Evolutionary psychology goes in depth into this. However, as practical as the hypotheses are, they are diffcult to prove empirically and will remain hypotheses until they can be tested.
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 15:53:57 GMT -5
Hello Kevin, Welcome w do not ban people just for being a christen here. It’s the christen boards that ban us just for speaking our minds. Even in the smallest way it is not allowed. Do you think this might be forgiveable, considering most Christian boards probably want to limit discussion to issues about how to practice Christianity? I imagine there is a danger that the purpose of the entire board would be diverted if theist-atheist argument were permitted. But, it is still now how I would build a Christian board, or any board for that matter--we are all looking for answers, so there should absolutely be a forum for this kind of discussion. I'm glad other views are accepted here. I've looked at heaven and hell in many ways, at different times; when I understood it the way you do, I basically rejected the idea. It did not conform to the body of Christ's teachings or the truth that I know deep inside me. However, I rejected the idea, not the possibility that there could be another worthwhile understanding. Why do you persist in holding one view about this issue, when that view is objectionable to you? You don't have to agree with fundamentalist Christians--I certainly don't. I think when they throw this kind of view of hell around, it is for the same reason that we execute prisoners in jail--revenge, and pride. It seems wrong to me, too. Do you think that even under the conditions that we both object to, an axe murderer has come to appreciate all those things I listed in my first reply? I think of some native islander out somewhere in the Pacific a thousand years ago... of course he never heard of Jesus, but does that mean he did not follow his teachings, or believe, metaphorically speaking, in him? Christ was more than a man--he was a way of life. Does it matter what name we give him? "A rose by any other name..."... is still a rose. Tough stuff. Yes, I didn't really give credence to the idea of "original sin," which you have touched on here. The Bible relates a creation story that you are probably familiar with that accounts for why we are tempted to evil, and why free will can be understood really as free-won't, as another poster put it. But my answer to this question is, are you really not in control of your thoughts? I know I have significantly changed the amount I indulge the thoughts you are describing. And, once again, would it be free will if we were unable to err? Am I thinking about it wrong? I believe in my words, but you reject yours... so who is thinking about it wrong? I'm not trying to be inflammatory; I just wonder why you are so unwilling to part with your very uncompromising view of hell, especially since it is so repulsive to you. I don't think all those people will go to hell; my speculations about hell and how people get there are pretty well summed-up in my earlier reply. You paraphrase the Bible... but interpreting the Bible, and understanding the nature and reason for those parts that don't fit in neatly with our own views, is a gargantuan task that I think even most Christians simply don't have time to do. Which is why we have priests and pastors, etc....
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Post by necroshine on Mar 13, 2005 16:40:25 GMT -5
Hello again, I have my view of hell from what the bible says. Not from what I make up on my own. The only way you can get into heaven is to believe that jesus dies on the cross. That is a bit specific isn’t it? well if that is the only way you can get into heaven then where does everyone else go? Do you believe that jesus is the only way? If not then why call yourself a Christian? If you do believe this then you should believe that all jews, Buddhists, hindus, and many others around the world will go to hell for believing in a false god. A rose by any other name will get you into hell.
Are you really? When you see someone that you don’t like do you really just go one your way and not have any thoughts of them that are negative? None at all? You don’t find any woman attractive that you can not have sex with? Are you saying you are 100% in control of your thoughts? If you are I will freely say you are better than i. if not please understand where I was coming from. Just a thought is a sin. Then how can I not possibly keep from sinning if your going to hold my thoughts against me?
Hell if for people who don’t believe in jesus. People like to think its for evil people but you go to hell for not believing in jesus. Is this view wrong? how else can you get into heaven? As far as I know there is only one way. Please let me know what back door there is to heaven.
Read it for yourself. Do not rely on other people to tell you what to believe. As I asked before. What other way is it into heaven.
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Post by Christian on Mar 13, 2005 16:59:04 GMT -5
Hello again, I have my view of hell from what the bible says. Not from what I make up on my own. The only way you can get into heaven is to believe that jesus dies on the cross. That is a bit specific isn’t it? well if that is the only way you can get into heaven then where does everyone else go? Do you believe that jesus is the only way? If not then why call yourself a Christian? If you do believe this then you should believe that all jews, Buddhists, hindus, and many others around the world will go to hell for believing in a false god. A rose by any other name will get you into hell. Are you really? When you see someone that you don’t like do you really just go one your way and not have any thoughts of them that are negative? None at all? You don’t find any woman attractive that you can not have sex with? Are you saying you are 100% in control of your thoughts? If you are I will freely say you are better than i. if not please understand where I was coming from. Just a thought is a sin. Then how can I not possibly keep from sinning if your going to hold my thoughts against me? Hell if for people who don’t believe in jesus. People like to think its for evil people but you go to hell for not believing in jesus. Is this view wrong? how else can you get into heaven? As far as I know there is only one way. Please let me know what back door there is to heaven. Read it for yourself. Do not rely on other people to tell you what to believe. As I asked before. What other way is it into heaven. The Bible states in multiple places conflicting information from different sources on whether or not faith alone is the determiner of salvation. Some are quoted as saying that faith alone does it, like you are asserting here; others say that faith is secondary to works--that what we do and how we act is the foremost. Still others say that the two are inseparable, and that faith and works go hand-in-hand, and cannot exist without eachother. I feel much more in this camp. But the Bible offers you all three in different spots. I'm not a scholar, so I cannot speak for the different contexts and pretexts in which those differing statements were written. But I don't see anything wrong with reading or listening to what others have found in their search for the Truth, and comparing it to what I know in my heart. You say, "Do not rely on other people to tell you what to believe"...But don't you learn from others, when you find that what they say resonates with what you know in your own heart? And as for faith alone; well, what kind of faith? Your attitude is that someone can be an evil person but believe that Christ is his savior, and "get into heaven." I already said that I don't believe that only Christians get into heaven, and that I believe that people who are consumed with self-love will not choose join God; in fact, when you use the phrase "get into heaven," I think we have entirely different concepts of what heaven might be. I think I choose to think many things that I know in my heart do not give me happiness. And as I've grown older, I've gotten better and better at keeping my mind pure of indecent thoughts. I very rarely feel anger or dislike, or as you say, negative thoughts, towards people who are different than me or who don't like me, now. I mean VERY rarely. That came little by little, by being aware of my thoughts and knowing that I could change them. I have also changed how much I think about women in an objectifying way; this is accomplished by choosing not to indulge those thoughts that spring into my mind. The less they are indulged, the less frequent they become. I don't know if they will ever go away; my suspicion is that they will not, entirely. But I am in control of how I deal with them, and that exerts a pull on how much they happen. Do I sin? Yes. Is it unavoidable to sin for me? In the instant, no. Over the span of my life, almost certainly, yes; most people agree that it is in human nature to err. But I certainly don't think that only faultless people find God! There sure aren't many of them. Perhaps that is why I like to subscribe to the "faith AND works" concept of salvation; I cannot guarantee that my works will always be pure and good, but I can guarantee that my faith will be strong and full of love, and that every success I experience in changing my works to reflect that faith, is due to the faith itself. How can anyone agree exactly on what the rose is? We can all call it by the same name, and mean entirely different things. Or, we can all call it different things, and mean exactly the same thing. The name matters not.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 13, 2005 19:11:14 GMT -5
I understand that you think works along with faith will get you into haven. But faith alone will keep you out. Ok I understand your stance. I even know many people who hold the same belief as you. But my point is this. No mater how good you are it will not get you into heaven. Unless you believe in jesus. Would you say that is true? if so many people in other religions will go to hell and they are good people. God says to not follow false gods, and you have to believe in what jesus teaches. That would mean that allah is a false god. And so is the many gods of the hindu faith. but if you want to lump all gods in one thing and say that no matter what god you believe in you will still go to heaven. Go for it. but that is a direct contradiction of what is in the bible. Why would god tell you to not follow false gods if any god will do?
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Post by Christian on Mar 14, 2005 0:12:43 GMT -5
I understand that you think works along with faith will get you into haven. But faith alone will keep you out. Ok I understand your stance. I even know many people who hold the same belief as you. But my point is this. No mater how good you are it will not get you into heaven. Unless you believe in jesus. Would you say that is true? if so many people in other religions will go to hell and they are good people. God says to not follow false gods, and you have to believe in what jesus teaches. That would mean that allah is a false god. And so is the many gods of the hindu faith. but if you want to lump all gods in one thing and say that no matter what god you believe in you will still go to heaven. Go for it. but that is a direct contradiction of what is in the bible. Why would god tell you to not follow false gods if any god will do? So, the Germans worship "Gott," and I worship "God"... I suppose under your definition, these two would be entirely different. I tried to make it clear that no two people can have exactly the same conception of God, and that I do not believe this is a problem. Some protestant Christian churches believe that no other religions are worthwhile. Catholicism, since the mid-to-late 20th century, has recognized plurality in salvation--in other words, no, the majority of the world's people are not worshipping "false gods." I think a deeper contextual understanding of the Bible might help you when you are wrestling with the most uncompromising language of it.
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Post by necroshine on Mar 14, 2005 6:49:37 GMT -5
Why do you choose to not understand what I am saying? I am not saying that just because you say gods name different that it’s a false god. I’m saying that allah and other completely different religions are the false gods. the germans do worship the christen god. If you follow religions that are different from the christen religion then you are following a false god. Do you agree or not? If I put Jerry falwell “a christan” and lets say osama bin laden a Muslim in front of god who will enter heaven and why? And lets not bring in the fact that the people do evil things I am just talking about a belief point of view. Who will get into heaven?
We have 3 major religions right now. Hinduism, christen, and jews, I know you lump jews and christens as one. even if the jews do not believe in jesus. Somehow they get into heaven. But how about the millions of Buddhists, and other religions around the world that still make up about half of the population? They will still go to hell for false gods. even by your standards a Buddhists will still go to hell, true? Or can following Hinduism get you into the christen heaven? That is what I am saying. Can a Muslim get in to the christan heaven?
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Post by Christian on Mar 14, 2005 9:11:21 GMT -5
Why do you choose to not understand what I am saying? I am not saying that just because you say gods name different that it’s a false god. I’m saying that allah and other completely different religions are the false gods. the germans do worship the christen god. If you follow religions that are different from the christen religion then you are following a false god. Do you agree or not? If I put Jerry falwell “a christan” and lets say osama bin laden a Muslim in front of god who will enter heaven and why? And lets not bring in the fact that the people do evil things I am just talking about a belief point of view. Who will get into heaven? We have 3 major religions right now. Hinduism, christen, and jews, I know you lump jews and christens as one. even if the jews do not believe in jesus. Somehow they get into heaven. But how about the millions of Buddhists, and other religions around the world that still make up about half of the population? They will still go to hell for false gods. even by your standards a Buddhists will still go to hell, true? Or can following Hinduism get you into the christen heaven? That is what I am saying. Can a Muslim get in to the christan heaven? I've made it pretty clear that I don't think one needs to enunciate the name of Christ in order to find God in life and in death. To reiterate, my views about the afterlife are entirely speculative; I don't hold them as centerpieces of my faith at all, because I try to find God in the here-and-now, and am not motivated by fear of punishment. You asked me, "Can a Muslim get into the Christian heaven?" My response to that question is that I think many self-proclaimed Christians would not be able to appreciate heaven as I see it, and so are not bound for it, if it exists as such; I'm sure the same is true of many people across all cultures and religions. But I must say that I do not believe that anyone would ever be beyond redemption and forgiveness in God's eyes, so long as they are willing to ask, and conform to His way. You also asked me if I thought Jerry Falwell or Osama bin Laden would "go to heaven," and why... Well, my answer there is that I simply don't know. However, it is my belief that you cannot separate anyones' beliefs from their works. I haven't found a convincing argument against that principle. So, when you ask me to ignore the fact that they might have done bad things or lived lives consumed by self-induced suffering and hate (which I think is true for both of them), I simply cannot comply. Both, however, believe in the same God, according to your definition of what amounts to "the same." I still think that you have not read closely how I envision heaven and hell; you are debating these ideas with me entirely on the terms of your conception of heaven as some sort of place that is bestowed as a reward, and hell as a place people are sent in punishment. I think this is a rather medieval image, don't you? Since I've gone to such lengths to try to answer your questions, would you mind answering one of mine? Forgive me, but by all appearances it seems that you are finding some pleasure in renouncing the entire concept of religion (or at least Christian religion), due to an inability to conform to some of the most commonly difficult and misunderstood aspects of it. When I found myself confronting the same questions that you are, I looked inside my heart and mind, thought as rationally as possible, and looked for an answer that aligned my heart and mind with my faith. I did not react with resentment and cast off my faith unconditionally. You seem to be approaching this with a rigidity that is very reminiscent of the style of Mr. Falwell and bin Laden, if I may say so without offending you.
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Post by droskey on Mar 14, 2005 11:29:51 GMT -5
Hi Kevin, welcome to the board. I'm going to address your first post. You seem to adhere to a very liberal version of Christianity. It seems like some of the beliefs that you hold make sense to you. Clearly you have thought a lot about where you stand and consequently your views cannot be categorized easily with standard Christian views.
However, it is important that you understand that, fundamentally, they are no more rational than the standard Christian fare. This is because, right from the get go, you are assuming that God and heaven and hell are real. Most atheists, myself included, don't believe in these things. Yeah, we might rave about the injustices of hell and say things like, "I couldn't ever believe in a god that would condemn people to hell." But this is really just navel gazing. Most of us can't believe in a god, period. It doesn't matter how mean or nice that god is. We don't see any reason to believe in any of it.
That being said, lets move on and discuss your original post. You spent most of your post trying to justify hell. You did this by blaming hell on humans. It is not the work of god. Rather, humans choose an existance apart from god. This is hell.
I held a similar belief when I was a Christian. But, that view requires that we have a very different view of god than what most Christians hold. That is, if hell is an actual state of existance, then god cannot be all good, all knowing or all powerful. And, in fact, he probably isn't any of the three. You can't get around this. How could he be? Even granting the BS that gets spouted about the value of free will, it would be irresponsible and cruel of god to create being that are destined to be eternally tortured. I would also say, that god could make living the righteous life and believeing in him a lot easier than it is now without takeing away free will.
If you are willing to accept that God probably isn't really a god, then hell is not an inconsistant idea. But then, God isn't worthy of worship.
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Post by Christian on Mar 14, 2005 18:22:18 GMT -5
Hi Kevin, welcome to the board. Thank you. Please, PLEASE read my posts carefully. I have made it a point to be clear that I only speculate about the afterlife. I do not have formulated beliefs about it; rather, you will see, everything I have suggested about the nature of the afterlife, applies to the nature of the life we live, as well. We can choose to be close to God, and appreciate Him, worshipping him as we diminish ourselves in relation to Him; or, we can reject Him and live closer to ourselves. I don't think this necessarily applies only to one life or another. It is just a fundamental concept of Christianity, and a lot of religions out there. Listen to this very simple, logical reasoning. The statement that God cannot be "all good, all knowing, and all powerful" is incorrect. The last quality, "all-powerful," means that He can be whatever the heck He wants, no matter how contradictory it seems to us. Belief in God is absolutely rational. Thinking that God cannot simultaneously be all-powerful and any number of other things (even contradictory ones), is erroneous logic. It's irrational. If there is a God, He is worthy of worship. There is no higher standard on what constitutes goodness and righteousness, than the ultimate authority on everything in the universe (God, its creator). So, if there is a God, deciding that your ideas about right and wrong and justice and entitlement are better than His... is just arrogance and foolishness. If you accept a hypothetical God, you must accept that in His hypothetical universe, His definition of right and wrong and so forth is the final word.
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Post by Christian on Mar 14, 2005 18:44:04 GMT -5
Hi Kevin, welcome to the board. I'm going to address your first post. You seem to adhere to a very liberal version of Christianity. It seems like some of the beliefs that you hold make sense to you. Clearly you have thought a lot about where you stand and consequently your views cannot be categorized easily with standard Christian views. Sorry to inundate you with replies... but as to my views and their relationship to "standard Christian views"... well, read here about how I agree with the Pope and the official position of the Catholic church. www.al-bushra.org/mos-chr/khoury.htm
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