Post by droskey on Mar 17, 2005 10:50:47 GMT -5
Christian
Again, we then render the idea of omnibenevolence meaningless.
Christian
I don't deny that your definition of omnipotence is a valid one. What I am saying is that it seems to make the idea of omnibenevolence meaningless if God in fact chooses to be a certain way. That is, you and I can't really say what is good. If God can be both kind and cruel in the human sense, then kindness and cruelty must both be defined as good. If God can be all things, then all things must be defined as good.
The idea of omnibenevolence is so powerful because it was a constraint. I have heard thinkers state something to the effect that a truly benevolent god is a self-constraining god. The idea being that God can do whatever he wants, but he constrains himself to be all-good. If this is what you are getting at, then perhaps omnipotence does not render omnibenevolence meaningless. However, this still doesn't solve the problem about the morality or immorality of hell.
Christian
That's because I am not an omnipotent god.
Christian
Would my child end up going to a hell to be tormented for all eternity if he hated me? If so, then yes, I would attempt to force that child to love me.
Christian
If I was an omnipotent God, I could make the love genuine. I'm not sure what the hypothetical difficulty is here.
Here we run into the problem with analogies. I'll admit, that my child running off the cliff isn't in direct one to one correspondence with our hypothetical god. But, with all this we are left with the following. We have a being that is all-powerful. Being omnipotent, god has every conceivable possibility open to him. He even has incoceivable possibilities open to him. Can you really call him good if he chooses one that has an eternal hell for those who don't love him? I know, I know. He is good by definition. Sure, I grant that. But can YOU call him good? I can't. The reason that last question is so important is because of the love issue. You asked me if I would force my child to love me. Is it possible to love a god whom you know chose eternal hell for those that don't love him? Is it possible to love god at all? Love is a human emotion. How do we apply it to something as strange, incomprehensible and cruel as the god we have been describing here. I think that we could feel awe and possibly respect for such a thing. I'm not so sure about love.
Omnipotence simply means that God has limitless possibilities at His disposal. However He chooses to arrange those possibilities is by nature the absolute correct way for them to be arranged. I think that still stands.
Again, we then render the idea of omnibenevolence meaningless.
Christian
When we posit an omnipotent God, all scrutiny of His actions in search of finding fault is simply a waste of time.
I don't deny that your definition of omnipotence is a valid one. What I am saying is that it seems to make the idea of omnibenevolence meaningless if God in fact chooses to be a certain way. That is, you and I can't really say what is good. If God can be both kind and cruel in the human sense, then kindness and cruelty must both be defined as good. If God can be all things, then all things must be defined as good.
The idea of omnibenevolence is so powerful because it was a constraint. I have heard thinkers state something to the effect that a truly benevolent god is a self-constraining god. The idea being that God can do whatever he wants, but he constrains himself to be all-good. If this is what you are getting at, then perhaps omnipotence does not render omnibenevolence meaningless. However, this still doesn't solve the problem about the morality or immorality of hell.
Christian
You can keep the child from running off the cliff, but you cannot erase his desire to do so.
That's because I am not an omnipotent god.
Christian
what if your own child hated you? Would you attempt to force your child to love you in some way?
Would my child end up going to a hell to be tormented for all eternity if he hated me? If so, then yes, I would attempt to force that child to love me.
Christian
If you did, would you consider your child's love for you to be genuine?
If I was an omnipotent God, I could make the love genuine. I'm not sure what the hypothetical difficulty is here.
Here we run into the problem with analogies. I'll admit, that my child running off the cliff isn't in direct one to one correspondence with our hypothetical god. But, with all this we are left with the following. We have a being that is all-powerful. Being omnipotent, god has every conceivable possibility open to him. He even has incoceivable possibilities open to him. Can you really call him good if he chooses one that has an eternal hell for those who don't love him? I know, I know. He is good by definition. Sure, I grant that. But can YOU call him good? I can't. The reason that last question is so important is because of the love issue. You asked me if I would force my child to love me. Is it possible to love a god whom you know chose eternal hell for those that don't love him? Is it possible to love god at all? Love is a human emotion. How do we apply it to something as strange, incomprehensible and cruel as the god we have been describing here. I think that we could feel awe and possibly respect for such a thing. I'm not so sure about love.