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Post by justn7 on Apr 12, 2005 22:28:02 GMT -5
I would like to introduce myself as a follower of Christ and if anyone is interested, engage in intelligent discussion over the existence of God.
I am interested to see if there are any actual Atheists in here.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 12, 2005 22:31:08 GMT -5
I am interested to see if there are any actual Atheists in here. What would an "actual atheist" be?
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Post by justn7 on Apr 12, 2005 22:46:10 GMT -5
Well, an Atheist believes that "There is no God." In order to believe in the non-existence of something, you must have complete knowledge. Here's an example: I believe that there gold DOES EXIST in China. All I have to do to believe this is see one piece of gold, say a woman's gold ring. I don't have to keep looking throughout China because I already know there is gold in China. Now, if I say that gold DOES NOT EXIST in China, I have to have complete knowledge of ALL of China, both above and below ground, inside and out to know that gold does not exist in China. Of all the knowledge there is in the universe (the # of the grains of sand in the Sahara to the age of each bird) do you think you posess? And, are you willing to concede that in all of that knowledge that you don't posess, that there MAY OR MAY NOT BE absolute proof of the existence of God?
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 12, 2005 23:18:08 GMT -5
Oh, you're talking about the strong atheists. You'll want to direct your questions to them then.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 12, 2005 23:34:06 GMT -5
Oh yeah, almost forgot, welcome to the board.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 13, 2005 0:14:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome, I'm glad to be here. I would say that they are not "strong atheists" but rather just atheists - they believe that there IS NO GOD. You sound more like an agnostic - we cannot know.
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Post by UnsavedSwed on Apr 13, 2005 0:17:44 GMT -5
I just wanted to point out that it is impossible to prove 100% that god exists or doesn't exist. But what we can do is look at evidence for each side and decide for ourselves what we believe. And I've personally never seen an other atheist claim they had every answer to every questions that can be asked. But I haven't met a Christian that has all of the answers either.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 13, 2005 1:51:40 GMT -5
I agree with you. So you are also an agnostic. I am trying to find someone who will actually claim to be an atheist.
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Post by Enuffalready on Apr 13, 2005 4:12:59 GMT -5
really you can get in to defining terms all day long, true we can't know but I think the real distinction lies in that while an agnostic would say simply "we can not know that" Where as an atheist may be aware that it is impossible to know, he or she plainly states that they believe that there is not. I know its not the dictionary definition, but to me it seems a better working definition. By the way welcome.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 13, 2005 9:42:13 GMT -5
Fair enough. I just wanted to establish the possibility that God exists. IF in fact he does exist, it is then logical that we would want to find out who he is and what he expects of us. Correct?
Instead of arguing the validity of the Bible, I would simply like to share with you what it says.
First, can anyone name the person behind this quote?
"I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man."
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Filter
Seasoned Citizen
An opposing thumb has made all the difference!!
Posts: 221
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Post by Filter on Apr 13, 2005 12:11:04 GMT -5
Well, an Atheist believes that "There is no God." Be careful not to wallow in a definition. I do not believe there is a God as defined in the Bible or any other document written by man thus far. You could also say that I do not believe strongly enough in any idea of a god(s) to advise or demand others to alter their lives accordingly. Now in the scheme of being curious about the concept of God -- that is human nature, but I think I have already dedicated enough time on that in my life. The same goes for space aliens (that strangely appear similar to us) and many other pseudo-sciences or quack medicine. I have made a decision to no longer pursue those kinds of answers. So how would you define me? Atheist, agnostic? Really, I am simply "disinterested" in the supernatural. A label gives my position too much legitimacy. I am really not on a pursuit. ... and Welcome!!
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Post by vertigo on Apr 13, 2005 12:57:44 GMT -5
Justin, to understand strong atheism you must be prepared to listen. Most of the time people say they want to know, but then they don't listen.
Strong atheism is about what it means to 'know' something. Knowing something doesn't make it true. There was a guy in a mental institution who believed he was Napoleon. They gave him a lie-detector test and asked him if he was Napoleon. He said no, but the machine showed he was lying.
He really wasn't Napoleon, but he lied when he said he wasn't because he believed he was. Knowing no God exists doesn't mean that no God exists. If you are okay with this and are prepared to listen, I will continue.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 13, 2005 13:26:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome, I'm glad to be here. I would say that they are not "strong atheists" but rather just atheists - they believe that there IS NO GOD. You sound more like an agnostic - we cannot know. There are two major divisions of atheism - gnostic (strong) athiests and agnostic (weak) atheists. Strong atheists postively assert that no god exists, as you pointed out, there are some problems with this position. Weak atheists have concluded tentatively that no god exists because there is not sufficient evidence to back up such an extraordinary claim. This position could change as more evidence comes to light and is critically analyzed. It is much akin to a scientist's position on a theory...go where the evidence points. So can you see the difference? Weak atheists do not positively assert "there is no god", we actually say "we don't see sufficient evidence for a god". This is not an absolute proposition.
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Post by droskey on Apr 13, 2005 13:38:06 GMT -5
solidsquid addressed the issue of defining an atheist. In the end, an atheist has no god belief. It's that simple. I'll admit that there could be a god. However, I don't see any reason to assert that god exists and hence to believe in one. Therefore, I am an atheist. I don't have a god belief.
justn7 Not all versions of god are possible. Some are probably more likely than others. But, your poorly defined concept of god aside, why is it logical that we would want to find out who (if that term can be applied) he (if that term can be applied) is? Why would we assume that he expects anything from us?
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Post by justn7 on Apr 13, 2005 17:31:49 GMT -5
That's a lot to respond to, but I'll do my best. First, thanks to solidsquid for clearing up my understanding of gnostic and agnostic atheists. To vertigo, I am very willing to listen. Let's differentiate between 'know' and 'believe'. If you 'know' that you are Napoleon, but you are not Napoleon, your 'knowledge' is false. I would say that this person 'believes' he is Napoleon, but the intensity of his belief has no bearing on the reality that he is not actually Napoleon. Jacopo, if you'll hang around, hopefully I can give you a reason to make sure that your belief in god or no god is correct.
No one gave me an answer to who said this,
"I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man."
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