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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 22:07:55 GMT -5
Besides over 300 prophecies about Jesus Christ alone being fulfilled, what more do you want than eyewitnesses giving their lives for what they saw??
These people were willing to go through the same horrible death as Jesus did because they KNEW He was God because they SAW him raised from the dead. His closest followers as well as his own family pretty much disbanded and went into hiding after his crucifixion, but when they met him in his resurrected body (as did thousands of others), they became bold and went out into the world proclaiming his death and resurrection.
Listen, God is just and right in punishing those who break his laws. He has to because he is PERFECT. He doesn't just let lawbreakers go- that would make him corrupt. No, He is righteous and perfect and will punish sin wherever it is found.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 22:28:26 GMT -5
What I have already given you is the Bad News that we all have sinned and deserve Hell.
The Good News is this. God is patient and not willing that any should perish. Put yourself in a courtroom- you have been caught driving 65mph through a school zone during a blind children's convention. You are guilty. The judge levels a $50,000 fine and you must pay or go to jail. Are you going to be let go because you are sorry... or because you've done a lot of other good things... or because you don't believe in the judge? NO- your fine must be paid. God came to earth 2,000 years ago as a human- one of us- because (Heb 9:22) there is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. That is why the Jews were constantly making blood sacrifices in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and was brutally beaten and hung on a cross FOR YOU. God's wrath was poured out on him and he paid your fine so that you, a lawbreaker, could walk free.
The question now is, how do you access the forgiveness that is available? The Bible says that we need to REPENT - recognize that you have broken God's law and offended Him, cry out to Him for mercy and turn from your sin. You actually die to yourself spiritually and God resurrects you into a new life- it's called being born again. Then we need to TRUST in Jesus Christ alone to save us on the day of judgment- just as you would put your trust in a parachute when you jump out of a plane. You don't just believe in the parachute, you put it on.
If you REPENT and put your TRUST in Jesus Christ, He promises to save you- He will give you a new heart with new desires; the sin that you love, you will begin to hate and the things of God that you hate, you will begin to love. He will be true to His promise and when you stand before God on the day of judgment, your fine will be paid and you will be with Him for eternity.
Lastly, you don't come to God because you are afraid of Hell. You come to God because you realize how you stand before your creator and how KIND He has been in giving His own life so that you could be saved, and you want to be with the one that has been so kind to you.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 15, 2005 23:59:14 GMT -5
Solidsquid, I am explaining what the Bible says is going to happen to you when you die. It is your decision to accept or reject it, but make sure you KNOW FOR SURE it is false before you reject it- because if you are wrong and it is true, you will pay for all of eternity. Fallacy: Appeal to fear. Also a proactive play on Pascal's wager. The only source for such assertions is the bible. A collection of works for which the veracity is questionable. So you are proselytizing.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 16, 2005 10:33:18 GMT -5
Solidsquid, if a blind man were walking toward a cliff, what would you do? Would you risk being accused of proselytizing and warn him of what is in front of him, or be nice and leave him alone to walk over the cliff? That's all I'm doing.
I have a question. Are you absolutely sure that the idea of absolute truth is debatable?
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 16, 2005 12:42:50 GMT -5
Solidsquid, if a blind man were walking toward a cliff, what would you do? Would you risk being accused of proselytizing and warn him of what is in front of him, or be nice and leave him alone to walk over the cliff? That's all I'm doing. So you view yourself as helping us from impending danger? What if the man knew the cliff was there but wanted to walk off anyway? The items you continually post are not unknown to us justn, most of us were Christians at one point, have read the bible fully and understand what it purports. You are not doing anyone a favor, please realize this. We have been surrounded (many of us anyway) by religion most of our lives, understand it fully, yet under our analysis have conlcuded it is not valid. Nice try.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 16, 2005 15:31:59 GMT -5
Are you absolutely sure it was a nice try? You make absolute statements all day long and then when it is convenient, say that there is no absolute truth. I dare you to make an absolute moral judgment and tell me I'm wrong.
So, what is your favorite piece of evidence that disproves the Bible?
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Post by vertigo on Apr 16, 2005 16:33:42 GMT -5
I think most people don't have a 'favourite' piece of evidence. I mean, I don't think that most people really care.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 16, 2005 19:31:47 GMT -5
Are you absolutely sure it was a nice try? It was actually very clever. Here is where the distinction must be made between conversationalism or colloquial speech and logical premises. In conversation, people make "absolute" statements all the time, however, it must be taken into context of the sphere in which that speech is phrased. Furthermore, the subjectivity of conversational speech is one which an axiom of non-absolutism is ever present. Logical argumentation is a different realm guided by logical progressions be they inductive or deductive. What you're putting forth is on par with the saying, "Everything I say is a lie". It is a paradox logically but it's intent is not that of furthering logical discourse but of humor. To that end, to bridge the gap and choose to fuse the two would make everything subjective and no absolute whatsoever, including this statement......and this one............and this one........ ad infinitum. This is why logical compartmentalization takes place, a focus on one aspect or another. It is pretty impossible to logically take into account all intervening variables that may have effect upon a progression on "the whole". You could think until your brain turns to mush and come nowhere close to a coherent answer to any question. I never said I have evidence that "disproves" the bible or god for that matter. The proactive view is the incorrect one. It must be turned around. From many items in the bible such as the Flood, there is no evidence to verify this actually took place as described. Does this disprove a flood happened, worldwide most likely, a localized flood of that area, maybe not. Those who defend the events as happened as is literally written must show that this is so. Much like anyone making a claim. If I wanted to prove that there actually was a King named Oedipus in ancient Greek times, it would be up to me to verify that claim. I can't just simply point and say, well it says it right here in print and this has been around for centuries...that wouldn't fly as evidence. As for my stance on absolute or relative morality, I take neither side. I see it as a false dichotomy such as nature v. nurture or pro-life v. pro-choice...More often than not, it lies somewhere in the middle, a situational mean.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 16, 2005 23:49:21 GMT -5
Solidsquid, I don't have time to respond to all of that right now. I think this will suffice. The veracity of the entirety of your statements rests on the existence of absolute truth. In other words, you just made another group of absolute statements.
You can't shift the burden of proof onto the Bible AND you don't want to. The Bible has plenty of archeological and historical evidence, but its proof will come on the day of judgment. The burden of proof is on your claim that the Bible doesn't stand up to your critical analysis.
Thanks for talking to me to solidsquid, jacopo, and everyone else who has chimed in and/or been reading these posts. I'm going to continue to drop in, but not as frequently.
God must and will judge the world in righteousness and today He offers you salvation and eternal life if you will humble yourself before Him, repent and put your trust in Him. He made the ultimate sacrifice to pay your fine- this is the best offer you will ever have! Why argue and fight it?
Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Think about it- you already know about God and his nature. Stop trying to argue it and realize his kindness!
Thanks again for spending your time talking with me.
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Post by droskey on Apr 17, 2005 16:47:59 GMT -5
justn7 Actually, that is all you can do. The Bible makes existential claims. It makes claims that "miraculous" things happened. Since miraculous things don't usually happen and since many people and religions claim that miraculous things happen that "prove" their point of view, we are right in asking for evidence that supports the Bible. The burden of proof rests squarely with the one making the existential claim.
justn7 Alledgedly. I have never seen anything that is convincing to me.
justn7 Actually this isn't true. However, the bible is unreliable for many things. The creation account is inconsistent with many branches of modern science today. Also, the multiple accounts of the resurrection are inconsistent. Jesus didn't come back in the time that he alledgedly claimed that he would. If there are these inconsistencies, why should I believe anything that the Bible has to say that sounds absurd or inconsistent with the way I know reality to be.
Also, there is the point that if I give a lot of weight to Biblical accounts I should at least go through the same thought process concerning every other claim made by every religion the world over. The fact is, that religion is based on faith, not evidence. The evidence for any religion is very shaky. They must be taken on faith. I don't have much faith in faith.
justn7 Thank you. See you later.
justn7 How do we repent and trust in him if we just don't believe. Should I believe every crack pot that comes along and tells me that he has a magic cure all. Why should I believe Christians or Muslims or Jews or Hindus?
justn7 Because it's a bunch of crap, justn7. It's all make believe. If I told you that I own a magic ice cream factory on Jupiter, why wouldn't you believe me. The answer is that you wouldn't believe me because:
1.) Nobody that you know of has ever owned an ice cream factory on Jupiter.
2.) There is no way that you know of to get an ice cream factory on Jupiter.
3.) I offered no convincing evidence to support my wacky claim.
I apply this same criteria to the wacky claims made by Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus. So far not one of these bullet points has ever been satisfied concerning religion. If I ever come across one that does, I'll believe.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 17, 2005 18:51:47 GMT -5
Solidsquid, I don't have time to respond to all of that right now. I think this will suffice. The veracity of the entirety of your statements rests on the existence of absolute truth. In other words, you just made another group of absolute statements. *sigh* Did you read what I posted? Negative Ghostrider. I am not the one making a claim. I am the one starting from a solid basis of nothing. You start with the premise that the bible is true, a premise which itself is not verified. You seem to have things mixed up, like many I find, I don't discredit everything in the bible. Of course Egypt is there and such. It is the unlikely events I dispute as being true, i.e. Noah's Flood. Archaeological evidence supports Homer's works as well, does this mean what was written actually took place? No. Just like a movie, Lethal Weapon for instance, that is taking place in L.A., the events are fictitous but L.A. is real, the LAPD is real but two renegade cops blowing up half the city to bust the bad guys isn't. Okie dokie. That's nice. Clearly? What is clear in such a sea of ambiguity and inconsistency? Because we were taught that as young children and the years following. Knowledge of such is not an innate feature of humans.
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SSS
Seasoned Citizen
Love Boat Captain
Posts: 119
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Post by SSS on Apr 17, 2005 23:39:35 GMT -5
That's the best analogy I've ever heard.
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Post by droskey on Apr 18, 2005 11:46:08 GMT -5
I'd probably still be a Christian if the Bible was like Lethal Weapon.
Pontius Pilate: The law dictates that we release one prisoner to you on the passover. Shall I release Jesus, who calls himself the Christ, or should I release the known murderer Barabas.
Crowd: Give us Barrabas!!
Pilate: Then what shall I do with Jesus. I find no guild in him.
Crowd: Crucify him! Crucify him!
Jesus: I'm gettin' too old for this shit.
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Post by godslayer on Apr 24, 2005 1:43:10 GMT -5
Well, an Atheist believes that "There is no God." no...an atheist KNOWS gods dont exist,as soon as you present a DEFINITION of your God. and since you are supporting Xian god here who is defined as Omni All=All knowing All mighty All good etc.. it will soon become imposible,contradictory to exist. watch.. first ..God is supposed to be EVERYWHERE,right? so if He aint right here... he doesnt exist!! ..and we dont have to search the whole fricking Universe for this god,all we have to do is look around and voila no god! see how easy it is to disprove your god? not convinced ?lets play some more God is supposed to be All Good right? and he created everything,...which would include EVIL, so If he created evil He cant be All Good can he? now here youre just proselityzing typical xian propaganda but heck lets go on.. on this so called sin, God who is All knowing and Created All is the One RESPONSIBLE for sin...If it existed that is why? b/c He is ALL Knowing He knows the past present and future ...EVERYTHING as you people like to claim right? so He knew that Satan will tempt Adam&Eve and that man will fall etc...which means its Gods fault Sin exist! He KNEW what the future will be!! or do you disagree? then God wouldnt be All knowing would he? more proof for Gods nonexistence hereanyway why would All people be sinners just b/c A&E ate from the Tree of knowledge is so totaly absurd and UNJUST that no ALL good, loving God could ever create, but He did...if bible story was true you see this so called SIN is was invented by the church so now they can sell you Jebus as THE CURE for it. lovely brainwashing idea aint it? doesnt work on those who can THINK aka atheists! thats just one way to make you simpletons think youre worthless sinners and adulterers even if you just look with lust at another woman, only an idiot would fall for such crap..but then I find Xians unable to THINK ,reason for themselves and realize how silly these beliefs are,unfortunately and Jesus also says: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law...." ..........Matthew 10:34 "Do you think I have to come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother- in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in- law. ..........Luke 12:51 WTF?? god like that who needs Satan www.thewaronfaith.com/bible_quotes.htmwww.evilbible.com/ as far as bible goes its a book of fantasy myths invented by some ancient people who had no clue how nature/universe works so they made up these stories which are btw so full of contradictions that no one today could possibly take it seriously.. see www.skepticsannotatedbible.comand it completely disagrees with our knowledge of age of the earth,universe,disproving itself as "truth" in the process. God is dead!
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Post by william on May 4, 2005 4:22:24 GMT -5
I just wanted to point out that it is impossible to prove 100% that god exists or doesn't exist. But what we can do is look at evidence for each side and decide for ourselves what we believe. And I've personally never seen an other atheist claim they had every answer to every questions that can be asked. But I haven't met a Christian that has all of the answers either. I dont even know all the questions!
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