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Post by Enuffalready on Apr 15, 2005 2:55:34 GMT -5
Thanks Jill! You beat me to it. Justin, I'm sorry I dont think the ten commandments define weather you are a good person or not. Besides The ten comandments are just hearsay anyway, I mean everyone is just taking moses's word that god handed down these comandments.
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jill
Maverick's Chew Toy
Posts: 4
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Post by jill on Apr 15, 2005 3:18:24 GMT -5
Enuffalready, you're welcome, however, I do believe in the ten commandments. I just think that christian or not, all people have broken most of them. I consider myself to be a good person, and a good christian even though I answered yes to all of his questions. I know a lot of athiests and I am intrigued. I like to hear what different people have to say. I have found very few "bad people" in this group. I at one time was considerd agnostic/athiest, but I never stopped being a good person.
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Post by Enuffalready on Apr 15, 2005 3:38:01 GMT -5
Jill, I really wasn't trying to shoot down the comandments as far as them being common sense sort of ethics. I was really just being a bit of a jerk throwing them back at our other poster for being so bold to use the comandments as a good person test.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 10:41:04 GMT -5
Jill, I agree with you that everyone has broken God's commandments. Romans 3:23 makes that clear. I would be careful calling yourself a good person, though. Jesus said that no one is good except God. I am not passing my own judgment here, though. The Bible tells us that God is going to judge us based on His commandments, and I think it's fair to give people the criteria on which they will be judged before they have to face judgment.
Everyone needs to answer these questions honestly between him/herself and God. Feel free to post your answers here, though.
Will God find you innocent or guilty of breaking His commandments?
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Post by droskey on Apr 15, 2005 13:28:50 GMT -5
justn7 Wow! Who said anything about adultery or murder? I don't remember those things coming up!
So we are to assume that Jesus is god? What do you mean by god? We are to assume that the Bible is true? Which parts?
I've got to be honest with you, justn7, this doesn't sound like an intelligent discussion to me. It sounds like a bunch of unsupported assertions that we are supposed to just agree with. You seem to be asking us to agree with them for the sake of discussion, but there hasn't been any discussion yet, just assertions.
So I will answer your question in the affirmative. I am guilty of breaking several of the 10 commandments. However, I dispute your assertion that this means any more than that I am human and that I have human emotions and that I have sometimes done things that are immoral. I have in fact taken things that I probably should have paid for and I have told a lie before. However, those are the only two areas that you addressed that I feel can be subjected to a fair moral evaluation.
I also dispute your implied assertion that the 10 commandments come from the "mouth" of a supreme being (i.e. a god). Furthermore, I dispute your assertion that the 10 commandments, as they stand, are necessary and sufficient conditions for moral living. Finally, I dispute your assertion that Jesus Christ (if he existed) was the "son" of said god or was in fact said god.
Now we can have an intelligent discussion.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 13:56:08 GMT -5
Matthew 5:28- Jesus said that whoever looks at a woman with lust has committed adultery with her in his heart
In Matthew 5:22, Jesus says that hating someone, calling them a 'fool' is the same as murder. God sees that person as a murderer at heart.
These are not my assertions, but those of the Bible. Like I said, answer these questions honestly before God.
If God finds you guilty of breaking His laws, should He take you to heaven or send you to hell?
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Post by droskey on Apr 15, 2005 14:37:19 GMT -5
justn7 So if I have "impure" thoughts, it's the same as committing adultery? So I ought to just commit adultery and satisfy my urges rather than bear them and still be considered guilty.
Hating someone is the same as murder? So I ought to just kill them so that they aren't a pain in my ass rather than suffer their existance and still be guilty of murder.
Seems pretty stupid to me.
justn7 Oh but you are asserting that there is a god. And, you are asserting that he gave us the Bible and cares about what we do. These are assertions that you are making.
justn7 What's heaven and hell? Do you mean eternal paradise and eternal torture? Well, I'm willing to admit that I don't merit eternal paradise and it would be arrogant of me to expect that. However, I'm equally sure that I don't deserve eternal torture, even when you do equate my "bad" thoughts and uncontrollable human emotions with adultery and murder (which are both actions). Eternal torture seems a bit harsh for just about anything that a human being can do, don't you think?
So I think that God should have a third, middle ground option open to him. Like maybe he could just let me die. I wouldn't cry foul about that.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 15, 2005 16:04:38 GMT -5
I am sharing with you guys what the Bible says, and without getting into the doctrine of the Trinity, etc., lets refer to the God of the Bible as Jesus Christ. Most of us know what it says, you incorrectly assume that we atheists were never Christian or any other religion and have never read the Christian bible or any other sacred text...that is an incorrect assumption. Murders? Who the hell admitted to murder? If you think so. Let me say this: 1) You've assumed that we have done things we have not....where did anyone admit to murder? 2) The Ten Commandments is a part of your system of morality, not mine. 3) The very validity of what you claim as your basis for this is not established. Hence, amongst the many reasons some of us are atheists. 4) What does this have to do with anything since the question of absolute morality is a debatable point in the first place?
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 15, 2005 16:08:18 GMT -5
Jill, I agree with you that everyone has broken God's commandments. Romans 3:23 makes that clear. I would be careful calling yourself a good person, though. Jesus said that no one is good except God. I am not passing my own judgment here, though. The Bible tells us that God is going to judge us based on His commandments, and I think it's fair to give people the criteria on which they will be judged before they have to face judgment. You assume your basis (your religion) is correct, that has not been established. Fallacy: Loaded question.
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Post by solidsquid on Apr 15, 2005 16:12:17 GMT -5
Matthew 5:28- Jesus said that whoever looks at a woman with lust has committed adultery with her in his heart In Matthew 5:22, Jesus says that hating someone, calling them a 'fool' is the same as murder. God sees that person as a murderer at heart. These are not my assertions, but those of the Bible. Like I said, answer these questions honestly before God. If God finds you guilty of breaking His laws, should He take you to heaven or send you to hell? I'm starting to question your motives for being here Justn7, are you here to discuss or proselytize? Also, using the bible to back up what the bible says is circular, another fallacy.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 16:55:47 GMT -5
Jacopo- the reason that sin is actually much worse than we think it is is because of whose law we have broken. If you break the rules at school, it is a much smaller offense than breaking a city ordinance; which is much lesser an offense than breaking a Federal Law. Breaking the laws of the Creator of the universe is infinitely more serious. Your question hits right at the heart of what I'm trying to do here which is show you that God is right and just and reasonable in punishing lawbreakers.
Solidsquid, I am explaining what the Bible says is going to happen to you when you die. It is your decision to accept or reject it, but make sure you KNOW FOR SURE it is false before you reject it- because if you are wrong and it is true, you will pay for all of eternity. That is what scares me for you. If I wanted to come in here and get off on telling people how bad I think they are, I would have not wasted this much time trying to make God's judgment reasonable to you.
God made the universe and everything in it, and therefore because He is the supreme being of the universe His nature is the Law the rules the universe. Whether or not we think it is fair is irrelevant. It is arrogant to think we have the right to judge the Creator of the universe.
There's another part to the story if anyone is concerned enough to hear it.
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Post by somethingclever on Apr 15, 2005 17:28:38 GMT -5
I noticed one commandment you never brought up was the fourth about keeping the Sabbath holy. But I guess that wouldn't prove your point because Jesus himself broke that one.
And God killed (sixth commandment) on a number of occasions. Think about the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the plagues in Egypt, just to start.
So does that mean God and Jesus are exempt from their own rules? I would be reluctant to do as anyone says if they cannot actually act accordingly.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 18:16:18 GMT -5
Jesus broke the Pharisee's rules for the Sabbath, not God's.
God punishes sin and would be right to kill all sinners (meaning all humans) where we stand right now. But He doesn't- Romans 2:2-4 "And we know that God, in His justice, will punish anyone who does such things. Do you think that God will judge and condemn others for doing them and not judge you when you do them too? Don't you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin?" What I am saying is that we have to differentiate between killing and murder. An example of killing would be taking the life of someone who was about to murder you. You would not be considered a murderer for that, but you killed someone. A murderer kills out of hatred and wrongfully takes life.
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Post by justn7 on Apr 15, 2005 18:43:16 GMT -5
Let's not rabbit trail though. Right now, as we stand, the Bible says that when you die, God is going to judge you and find you guilty of breaking His law. Rev. 21:8 "But cowards who turn away from me, and unbelievers, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the sexually immoral, and those who practice witchcraft, and idol worshipers, and all liars- their doom is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur."
PLEASE DEAL HONESTLY WITH THIS BOOK. It claims to be the Holy inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of the Living God and has stood firm in that claim for over 2,000 years and is the world's largest religion. Any book that claims this falsely would not survive one week, let alone attract more than a few mentally unstable followers. Instead, the authors who were eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Christ gave their lives for what they saw. EYEWITNESSES DON'T GIVE THEIR LIVES FOR WHAT THEY KNOW IS FALSE. Accept it or reject it, but please have something solid that absolutely disproves it. If it is true, you are in trouble.
God does not want you to be punished for eternity in Hell 2 Peter 3:9 "He (the LORD) does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent."
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Post by droskey on Apr 15, 2005 19:18:56 GMT -5
justn7 So it doesn't matter how senseless the particular rule is, if it alledgedly comes from a higher authority, then breaking the rule is worse than breaking a rule from a lower authority. The consequence of breaking the rule is irrelevant.
justn7 But you have failed to make this alledged God's judgement sound reasonable. In fact, God sounds unreasonable in that he is holding humans accountable for that over which they have no control (i.e. emotions and beliefs). In addition, this god is apparently willing to allow infinite suffering for finite infractions. That doesn't seem to be just to me.
justn7 Then why did you spend any time trying to "make God's judgement sound reasonable", if God isn't reasonable and we can't "judge" him.
justn7 I have dealt honestly with this book (the Bible). It is a work of literature, no more no less. It is irrelevant what the book claims about itself. It paints a picture of one cultures religious beliefs that were passed down through oral history. It gives a basis for the origin of the Christian church and outlines early Christian beliefs. However, there is no reason to take it as literally true. In fact there is every reason not to. The world just does not work the way the Bible says it does. There is no evidence that prophecies have come true, the miracles occur, that God spoke to anybody. I have given it a fair shake and it doesn't hold up.
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